Harbeth P3ESR - Underwhelmed

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by BIGGER Dave, May 27, 2016.

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  1. ls35a

    ls35a Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, Idaho
    It's a small room speaker. Period.

    I have a pair in my 11x12' office with a subwoofer and they're perfect. In this room.

    In the big room downstairs? I prefer my LS-50's.
     
    bhazen likes this.
  2. rxonmymind

    rxonmymind Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sacramento
    Thank you. I turned down a new in box pair at a garage sale for $20. Glad they sucked.:D

    Jk...
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
  3. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    I brought home the latest iteration of the LS3/5a recently and while they sounded amazing in the dealer's small showroom - so good in fact that I bought them outright when he would easily have let me take them on a demo.

    At home I heard the same as the OP. They were simply lost in my 25x25 den. Just a consideration that you have to account for.

    I can understand the affinity for a big bottom that many have. My old Infinity Watkins woofers filled that need for me for many y arms, but now I tend to prefer the smaller, faster woofers with a small sub to give just a little kick at the bottom.
     
  4. Linto

    Linto Mayor of Simpleton

    Did you try rearranging your room so you sit nearer?, these are near field monitors,
    meant to sit on the dashboard of a transit van, not meant to fill big rooms, even 20 x 15
    is massive for a Ls35a,
    I find all BBC type speakers sound best when sitting nearer than normal.
     
  5. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Yes - nearfield speakers should have the usual equilateral triangle - 5 feet apart 5 feet back - 6 feet apart 6 feet back kind of positioning or you sitting even closer. These speakers would be more suitable for an 8 x 10ish room. When you start moving to 13 X17 I personally would be looking at speakers using 8 inch woofers and considerable bigger speakers and then when 20x 25 the bigger 8s will still hang in but you probably should be looking at bigger floor standing speakers.
     
  6. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
    You are here
    The OP will never find the missing bass in his case. Wrong speaker imo. All Harbeth speakers are deemed "bass light" [including the 40 series] but that can be adjusted to suit ones taste without the loss of mid range and highs from these speakers.

    But anyone else who has bothered to match speaker and room along with speaker and amp will find it a simple process to find more bass by matching in an interconnect cable.
    I just hooked up an on loan LFD Silver Reference 'connect between my 30.1's and LFD V. Hearing more bass on Hendrix's ELL than I ever heard on any other set up I have had. Bass now is very responsive and noticeable on whatever I put up. Seems each cable upgrade I have listened to so far has brought extra bass to playback. I will add that the LFD cable has brought a lot more than a bass upgrade though :)
     
  7. GoldprintAudio

    GoldprintAudio Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lexington, NC
    Are these, by chance, the Falcon Acoustic speakers LS3/5a that you purchased? If so, just curious how you like them? (other then the fact they did not do that well in the large room)
     
  8. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    These were the Spendor LS3/5AR2. My System Audio Aura10's absolutely destroyed them in every way for less than half the price. The Spendor's went back and I swapped them for a Rogue RP-5 :)
     
    GoldprintAudio likes this.
  9. Chazz

    Chazz Music Addict

    Location:
    Southeastern, US
    In my last house I had my PMC FB1+'s in a larger room and needed a sub to make everything sound right. My new house has a dedicated listening room that is much smaller (12X15) and they sound much, much better! I spent a lot of time with placement and now find I rarely need my sub. While they aren't the bottom line in bass, the bass I am hearing sounds natural and never bloated. The OP's Harbeth's would still be lacking for me and would require a sub to compliment them.
     
    Gordon Johnson likes this.
  10. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    What made you think these tiny Harbeth could compete with a big old JBL? Assuming an audition wasn't carried out. Harbeth can be very good sounding but the hype over this brand has become ridiculous. Some people just aren't going to like their style of presentation anyway but a good big one is always going to beat a good little one unless you listen in a hobbit hole.
     
  11. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

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    Harbeth ARE very good sounding and the hype is justified for all of their models. Of course some listeners want something different sounding which is fine. Fortunately there are some other makes of speaker that perform just as well with a different appeal.

    But as with ANY AND ALL speakers I urge that they are matched to room, amp and how the listener wishes to hear music.

    Over the couple of years of owning Harbeth 30.1's I have come to learn that matching cables is just as important to max out what this speaker can do. I never thought for a moment that I would enjoy some genre of music through these speakers when I first listened / heard them. Now I can say there is no other speaker for me to consider for my room, set up and wide range of music taste.
     
    IanL likes this.
  12. ls35a

    ls35a Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, Idaho
    I used a Mazda Miata to haul trash to the junkyard and it didn't work worth a damn - I had to make 40 trips. So it's a ****ty car.
     
  13. husafreak

    husafreak Great F'n music that's difficult to listen to!

    Location:
    NorCal, Bay Area
    I think the OP will enjoy the P3ESR in a small room. It will be interesting to see if over time he will find himself listening to more music in the bedroom than in the JBL room? I mean by that that the Harbeth "magic" doesn't hit you over the head, it may seduce over time though, they are seriously good speakers.
    I had a pair of Celestion SL600Si for 20 years in my main system. I know what it is like to try and live with mini monitors for all types of music. In the end I tried subwoofers with them (not the Celestion subs) but never really got them to integrate well. I have heard that REL subs integrate particularly well with Harbeth speakers but I'm no bass head and I'm usually turned off by the sub sound. My solution was pricey but the Harbeth SHL5+ are doing everything right for me now. So my advice for the OP is, listen for the P3ESR "magic", if you hear it then great, if you don't then I would not advise band aids like cables, amps, or subs. They just aren't going to make the Harbeth's sound different. Just move on.
    FWIW I think a great middle ground do it all speaker that could give you something between the JBL sound and the Harbeth sound is the Golden Ear Technology speaker range. They have the excitement of big JBL's and are pretty refined sounding too.
     
  14. hesson11

    hesson11 Forum Resident

    I'm not really sure what you mean by the "hype" over Harbeth. If you're talking about this and other discussion groups, there ARE a lot of people who say they like Harbeth, but I'm not sure that can be considered hype. It's just people expressing opinions. But perhaps I'm missing something. Wouldn't be the first time.
    -Bob
     
    Pomodori, royzak2000 and Art K like this.
  15. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Absolutely !!! Horns rule !
     
  16. Gang-Twanger

    Gang-Twanger Forum Resident

    Which horn-loaded Wharfedales? Not the old E90's?

    I've heard so many good things about the KEF LS50's, I'll probably have to buy a pair someday to find out. And the Totem models are good (including that bookshelf one that gets down into the 30's... Can't remember the model). I ended up buying a pair of the Wharfedale Denton reissues (My mains are an old pair of alnico W90's). The Denton anniversary model seemed to have the best balance of the things I was looking for in a bookshelf, including the bass. I thought about some used Harbeths, but the Harbeth sound is a little too reserved for me. Outstanding midrange and high-end clarity though. Better than the Dentons in that department. They really do set the standard on that. My Dentons were on sale for 50% off, so it was an easy decision. I wouldn't mind the bigger BBC-type (What was the original called? The LS5? I've seen some nice clones of that, not to mention Harbeth's big dog would certainly be nice, but I prefer a different sort of midrange and treble response. Something a bit more-engaging/not quite so reserved. I admit I do tend to prefer the speaker designs of old for the most part, and I usually favor a speaker that excels with older music rather than something that was designed for modern-day music. However, I bought the Denton reissues to COMPLIMENT my older, larger speakers. Something that could handle older music well, but is fast enough/clear enough to handle today's music.

    I imagine a sub would help those P3ESR's, and I will someday do that with my Dentons. In that configuration, I bet the Harbeths are hard to beat. Its tough with bookshelf speakers if you don't take the A25/A25XL approach, shoving a large woofer into a small enclosure, but there's also no 100% substitute for a decent-sized midwoofer and the weight that's added to the sound. Even my large mains don't get that low, but the mids and highs and upper-bass have all the weight they need. The Denton reissues fall short in that regard, despite their ability to dip low in the bass.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  17. ls35a

    ls35a Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, Idaho
    FYI, I've been buying LS3/5a and similar speakers since 1978. The Falcons are my favorite of all of them. I definitely prefer them to the bi-wire 11 ohm version that's all we've had available since, what, 1989?

    Won't play as loud as LS-50's, nor as low as P3ESR's. But you put on piano, harp, flute, whatever, and they are just uncanny. Blend pretty good with my JL Audio sub, too.
     
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  18. Gang-Twanger

    Gang-Twanger Forum Resident

    There's a lot more bass on "Electric Ladyland" than most people think, particularly in the low bass, and it really helps when your system can reproduce it. Not so important with his earlier albums, but EL and probably BOG are best through speakers with good bass abilities (or a sub complimenting the speakers). A pair of Rectilinear III's (1st gen) and a good sub/pair of subs would probably make that album melt minds (or a pair of subs with my W90's). "Electric Ladyland" can sound incredible, but I really think it requires a system that can dip low and sound big when asked.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  19. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
    You are here
    I certainly don't disagree with the statement that ELL has a lot of bass. An important factor is how controlled the bass sounds. Speakers that sound big and go low don't always sound as good as low bass that is controlled and definite in delivery. Again, it is as much about getting the max out of any given speaker which goes back to room, matching components etc.
     
  20. Gang-Twanger

    Gang-Twanger Forum Resident

    I totally agree about bass CONTROL, and you're right, EL really sounds good through a system with good low bass control. That's why I mentioned using a sub (or subs). I used to particularly-enjoy that album through good car systems that have rich, natural mids, smooth highs, and most of all, some good, well-controlled low bass.
     
    Gordon Johnson likes this.
  21. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Close I have the Wharfedale Vanguard which was the replacement (IMO better) E-70. I liked the E-90- but at the time in Canada I could only find in the pro model and since I was 18 living at home my parents were saying no too ugly - it has to look decent. And since it was a graduation present I couldn't very well look a gift horse in the mouth. I loved those Vanguards and while they're not strictly speaking Hi-fi - with all the tube amps coming back I am going to explore getting them fixed up and just see what they can do against some modern speakers - the horns were made in Japan and were quite good quality - the knock on the E-70 was the mediocre soundstaging and lack of bass response - the 10 inch woofer and design was more about sensitivity and efficiency than bass. The Vanguard with one less driver fixed up the redundancy and bass was very strong to 40hz and a bit below. I'll take impact 40hz over something gutless but speced to 25hz any day.

    [​IMG]

    The old e series is getting some love these days as well with all the tube amps making a comeback Inner Magazine - E=MC2: The Wharfedale 'E' Series »

    In fact there is a company in the UK that specializes in restoring and rebuilding and even building from the ground up the E series speakers. This series was better than your average bear and never taken seriously because they looked likes something that would be in a brothel.
    Home - wharfedale-e-series-speakers-specialists »

    It's one of the things I immediately liked about the Audio Note K, J and E was the speed and tactile nature of the things - the high efficiency speakers all have an open and fast sound which is strikingly nimble throughout the band. To me HE speakers in general are dynamically superb and dynamics for me is the lifeblood of music.

    One of the big designers from Rogers and Celestion (Andy Whittle) now works at Audio Note and made the AX Two standmount - it's very difficult to get these speakers selling out the way they do - so if you can find one second hand for cheap - you should pit it up against the LS-3/5a as I did with the top Audio Space LS-3/5a (they make a cheaper not very good version as well). Anyway, the AX Two at $1k retail is difficult to better - I have not heard an LS-3/5a better it nor does the Harbeth which costs more than double.

    Indeed - I sure wouldn't mind trying an old Wharfedale E-50 in spruced up shape - they could be a real nice find.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  22. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
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    If you can, grab a copy of the recent Newbury ELL issue. This pressing finally delivers across the board with this album, I'm sure you will both appreciate and enjoy it.
     
  23. BIGGER Dave

    BIGGER Dave Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Good news! I moved the Harbeths from my main room (35' x 15') to my much smaller bedroom (20' x 15') and the improvement was dramatic! In the bedroom, I hooked up the Harbeths to my Marantz 2238B (a receiver I bought new in the mid 70's and in 40 years has only needed new front panel lamps), and the pair sounds wonderful. The bass is now present and the volume is more than acceptable for a bedroom. The Harbeths sound more focused than my JBL 4425's, especially in the vocals. With the JBL's I would sometime strain to understand the lyrics being sung, with the Harbeths every word is crystal clear and legible. Crash cymbals sound like, well, crash cymbals. Ride cymbals have a great splashy sound. The Harbeths (at bedroom volume) don't have the slam and impact of the JBL's, but that's okay, the JBL's will stay in the main room. At this point, the Harbeths are staying right where they are, and I'm not even interested in adding a sub (yet). All is good!
     
  24. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    good to know! I wonder if in your main system, the amp was to blame? It was crazy how much changing amps changed the sound of my P3esr. the more focus sound and the better midrange of the harbeth may make you want to listen more often to those qualities over the big dynamic sound of the JBLs.
     
  25. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Having speakers for the right room and the right equipment attached is rather critical to give the speaker a proper fair shake. Rooms can be big deal from size and what the walls are made out of and indeed what the floor is made of and what natural room treatments the room exhibits - is it a barren room or is it stuffed with stuff - bookcases, tables, rugs, blinds/drapes. Amplifier choices are also a big deal - speakers designed for SET amplifiers like mine for example MUST be connected to SET amplifiers - running Solid State or Class D etc can sound terrible. Some speakers are better at letting you know that the front end system is really poor - lesser speakers are not.

    Indeed your JBLs are also kinda small for the big 35x15 room. That is a big room and a difficult one for smallish speakers like the 4425
     
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