Speakers. Jumper wires instead of supplied plates. Any sonic benefits?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by DrZhivago, May 27, 2016.

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  1. Archimago

    Archimago Forum Resident

    Back in late 2014, I made a pair of Canare 4S11 cables, biwired:
    Archimago's Musings: DIY / MUSINGS: Bi-Wired Canare 4S11 And Speaker Cable Discussion... »

    Then a year later with measurements some comparison with standard 12G "zip cord", and also Kimber 8TC's. Also noticed no difference with A/B testing or anything unusual even running 1 speaker biwired and the other just a single run of at least 12G.
    Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: Speaker Cables / Wires (Canare, Kimber, and the "Frankenstein" Zip Cord) »

    Couldn't find a difference with bi-wired or not, fancier cable or zip cord... Anyhow, these days I just connect up my bi-wired cable AND keep the jumper plate on my speaker in place so I don't lose it. I imagine that for the OP whether using the plate or small bits of 4TC would be fine either way. Whatever feels good. I don't believe it'll change the sound waves either way.
     
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  2. Diamond Dog

    Diamond Dog Cautionary Example

    Great. Now the cable nay-sayers will want to burn both of us at the stake for our heresy. Do you think it'll make any difference what kind of wood they pile up around our feet ? Maybe now that there's two of us they can do a blind A/B test...

    D.D.
     
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  3. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Yes, conductor material is relevant which I had mentioned, however length has bearing on its relevance. In other words, while copper (of a given gauge) might be sufficient for one length while the same conductor in brass (of the same gauge) would be sufficient for a percentage of that length of the copper one.

    I am fully prepared to accept the changes (better OR worse) that jumper swapping allegedly entails - provided someone could provide the scientific evidence validating it.

    To date, I know of none.

    Call me a skeptic, but human subjectivity does not cut the mustard for me. Not only is it not scientific, but human audio evaluation is notoriously unreliable. They don't make anechoic chambers and oscilloscopes for nothing you know. :D

    Finally, in the interest of experimentation I tried swapping jumpers on three speakers I own that have them: Polk RTiA7, RTiA9 and Snell J7. The wire I used was generous sized 12 ga "oxygen free" copper. I had initially thought there was an improvement however I went back again. Then I became unsure. So I reconnected the jumpers. Same thing. Back and forth, back and forth - until I finally placed two speakers side by side - playing in mono using a switch to make instantaneous direct comparisons between A and B - one speaker with jumpers, other with the 12 ga. Bottom line, what I thought I had heard turned out to be nothing at all and I'm 99.99 per cent certain there is not a human soul who could.

    These are my personal views and observations and I stand by them.

    That said, I am not telling anybody what to think nor what to do. I am simply reporting my own observations based on my own personal experiences. The rest comes from others who are experts & professionals in the field of high fidelity sound reproduction in whose judgment I have utmost respect.

    As I have said, do whatever you feel works best for you.
     
  4. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    Indeed. And, contrary to claims of, say, an Ethan Winer, the sound doesn't always improve when you ad a more expensive component. I have had expensive equipment, incl. cables, enter my system only to exit again after a week or so, because they either didn't improve sound, or in fact made it worse. So despite my high hopes for the more expensive piece of equipment, it couldn't fool me in the long run. I'm not denying that confirmation bias is a real phenomenon that you have to very careful about, but living with a component for a while is a good safeguard. Besides, auditory memory cannot be that bad. I mean, you remember people's voices for decades.

    One way NOT to test audio is with tests that involve quick switching between components. I don't have any problems with AB tests per se, but they should just respect and reflect the way subjects experience any differences, and for me, and many I know, this only happens over the course of some days. Even if I hear a difference immediately after switching a component, I know from experience that I can't judge the magnitude and overall SQ impact in my system until after a while. And switching quickly back and forth makes me loose all my bearings and makes judgements impossible. So whenever I make changes to my system, I make sure that I haven't made any other changes for at least two weeks before that. So AB tests are fine, just not the way they are typically conducted. You need trials of much longer duration.

    But in fact, a few tests seem to indicate that with training, some people can reliably tell the difference between cables, even with quick switching. A couple of years ago, I had a long and, despite our disagreement, a very pleasant discussion with a die-hard cable sceptic on a Danish forum. I asked for his empirical evidence that people cannot tell the difference between cables, and he sent me a long list of links to tests. I have a background (Ph.D) in bioacoustics, so I went through all the links, and it turns out that none of the tests could be published in a scientific paper. They were simply to poor in their test design. But curiously, the two or three that had quite good test design and the were closest to being publishable did in fact show signs of the test subjects being able to identify cables beyond chance. I wrote a detailed analysis of all the tests, but unfortunately in Danish, and I haven't had the energy to translate into English yet. Some day ...
     
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  5. king charles the third

    king charles the third New Member

    Location:
    London
    Jumpers wires make speakers sounds more immediate. It's worth it . Do it.
     
  6. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Let me get this straight: Is A/B flawed only when it reveals no difference then? o_O
     
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  7. Lester Best

    Lester Best Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Bklyn NY
    "length has bearing on its relevance."

    You're talking about a signal moving @ 2/3rds the speed of light. How many hundreds of miles of cable are necessary for relevance?
     
  8. chili555

    chili555 Forum Resident

    Then why not simply re-terminate the 4TCs to use bi-wiring instead of using jumpers? If you can solder, it is pretty easy to do.
     
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  9. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Blind testing of no value in audio? Sure, yeah, if that's what you want to believe....

    :biglaugh:
     
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  10. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    So, you believe in a test that results in a pair OTL mono blocks sounding the same as a cheap Japanese receiver?

    Yeah, not a good reflection on the test method or your opinion.
     
  11. dchang81

    dchang81 Forum Resident

    has anyone ever done simple measurements to see if there is a change? seems kind of silly that manufacturers spend all this time and energy to design a speaker and cheap out on a jumper that would drastically alter SQ. Unless of course it doesn't
     
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  12. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    You’ve cracked it.
     
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  13. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Why would anyone even remotely serious do that?
     
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  14. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Just a strawman argument.
     
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  15. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member


    Here's Sean Olive's opinion:-


    Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests »


    Now, let's just say that I have more faith in a view like his, compared to some nobody on an internet forum.

    And when someone else makes an assumption about what my views are without first checking, then attempting to call me out on it, more fool them.
     
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  16. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    Very simple, price points.
     
  17. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    What assumption, you make your beliefs well known, so much so you're only fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

    Try this, rely on your own experiences instead of what you can dig up on the Internet and you'd have more credibility. It's way too easy to find whatever you want online that fit's your position.
     
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  18. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    I do? Shows you how much you know of me, which is nil.

    If you knew anything of me and my participation in this hobby, you would then be aware that I value both methods to evaluate gear. Did you miss that? Guess so.

    Otherwise, I can't help you with your ignorance. You should probably stop now, you're merely showing yourself up. First you regard a proven test method as worthless, then you disregard Sean Olive, one of the industry's most respected figures. Seriously, walk away.
     
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  19. dchang81

    dchang81 Forum Resident

    arguing with a legend in their own mind will go nowhere. shouldn't take more than viewing a few of his posts to realize futility in engagement.
     
  20. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    That cuts both ways as you've made your beliefs well known as well. Did you read the link from Brother_Rael's post? You should as it is very informative article and you might learn something as I did.

    Bill
     
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  21. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    There's a very telling comment from Sean Olive in one of the replies further down that page, and I've added it below as it's especially relevant:-

    " It's OK for audiophiles to have biases (I have my own), as long as they acknowledge that these biases often get in the way of the truth -- as this study has shown. If we want to determine the true sound quality of a component, the listening test must be blind. "

    Incidentally, the telling point I was referring to is that we all have our biases, less so the test method, which is almost incidental.
     
  22. defmoot

    defmoot Contents Under Pressure

    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    "The first principal is not too fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard Feynman

    Boom.

    .
     
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  23. Diamond Dog

    Diamond Dog Cautionary Example

    Since this thread is rapidly going the way of nearly all cable threads, that being into the weeds, please refresh your recollection of the OP's request :

    I'm seeing a whole lot of feathers here but not much chicken... If you have actual experiences you'd care to share, I'm thinking they would be welcomed. If you've just come to evangelize, to practice your debating skills or to get into anti-social roll-arounds with other forum members, why not just listen to some music or maybe see what's on TV ? Your efforts to gain converts will be as futile as they've been in previous cable threads. Give up.

    D.D.
     
  24. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    With all due respect why is it when it is suggested to do blind comparison testing that removes all bias it is frowned upon? Some of the most respected people in audio including Sean Olive recommend blind testing to remove all bias. Why is that such a bad thing? Why wouldn't one want to know if their findings are actual or were due to expectations of adding new cables as is being discussed in this thread? I wonder if some are concerned that their findings could possibly not be there at all and are not willing to do blind testing. If one is so adamant about improvements found with jumper cables over supplied plates why not do some blind testing to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Bill
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  25. dchang81

    dchang81 Forum Resident

    excuse my ignorance/laziness but how come no one just shows measurements with cables vs plates? If there is a consistent difference then that's it. Whether or not those differences are better is a different story.
     
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