Harbeth P3ESR - Underwhelmed

I'm probably half deaf already from playing guitar in rock bands for the last 40 years, but I still can't imagine listening to music anywhere near as loud as the 4425's get with the two Crown PS400's bridged mono for 660 watts per amp. When my friends come over, I turn the volume pot on my preamp to about a third of the way and they all tell me to turn it down because they think their ears are bleeding (slight exaggeration). And they're musicians too!

(Why do I use crappy Crown amps? Because they just happen to be left over from PA systems I own.)

http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/legacy/k1073-4.pdf

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/recording/4425.pdf

 

35 by 15, Wow! my whole flat is about 35 by 18, that includes LR. BR. Bathroom and kitchen oh there is a hall too., and LS3/5As sounded great in it.
Horses for courses.

 

Newbury as in Newbury Comix? I'll look it up anyway, as that's the album of his that I really feel needed the most help. I didn't realize it until I started comparing, especially the US Reprise vinyl against the EL tracks on the US Reprise "Smash Hits". And the UK vinyl, while being a little better, still doesn't solve any of the issues I have with the that album. Basically, it's a peaky recording, and this MUST be addressed with ANY version, whether US, UK, German, or whoever. If the mid '80's US Reprise CD version had better bass, it would be perfect for me. The WG version is too faithful to what I think is just a harshly-mixed album. I blame Kramer and Jimi for the sonic traits of that particular album (Didn't Jimi help him mix at times and get his hands a little dirty on that one?). I really love EL, and I easily include that album in his top 2, maybe even his best ever, but I really don't play it that much. And yet "Smash Hits", "Axis", "AYE", and "Cry Of Love" get way more spins. I'd even wager that my old US "Band Of Gypsys" LP gets more play, and that recording has probably even MORE issues. I should have picked up the Classic reissue of that one..... Oh forget. I'm rambling. I'll have to check out that EL vinyl reissue you mentioned. That album has been almost as maddening to me as "Pet Sounds" and "All Things Must Pass", and those two albums were tops on that list. Anyway, sorry for the thread crap, guys (which will end after I answer this other post ;D ).

Yeah, there's so much more to this hi fi game than I initially anticipated. Power, efficiency, room size, speaker placement, cabinet DISplacement, etc., etc., not to mention the issues you face with synergy and making all of that gear work together so everything is operating in its "sweet spot" (and there are many different TYPES of sweet spots that one needs to worry about). It's a bit of a nightmare when you really take a step back and look at it.

I went the low power route, since the room is no more than like 14'x14', and I chose large speakers that sounded good without needing to crank the living snot out of them. And I spent some time working on placement and a couple other things, but I STILL found later on that I had plenty more to work on with my system. I may try integrating a powered sub or pair of powered subs into my setup, mainly because I want better low bass at low volumes. I like my mains, but even if I ever switch, I think subs might be the answer when it comes to low-bass control. I don't want to get into 4ohm speakers, so I don't need much power, plus I like the sound of tube gear. But old tube stuff is no easy task to master either. It can all be a bit of a headache if you don't have things under control, and I still feel I have quite a way to go before I'm over that hump.

Glad to hear you got it all sounding better. Room size vs speaker size/efficiency is a huge part of it for sure. Sounds like ls35a was spot-on in his comment about the P3ESR being a "small room" speaker. I still haven't decided what application I'll be using for my Denton reissues, which are about the same size, give or take. They need about 60-100wpc to really sound their best, and I've been dealing with 30-40wpc for quite a while.

 

Wow, those do look just like the E70. I've heard and read a lot of good things about the E series and especially that Japanese-made horn (which was a VERY-NICE Japanese horn driver... Way better quality than most of what was being produced there in the late '70's). I want to get a pair of E90's someday, but I think only if I can be sure I can put them to good use. From what I have been told by owners, they get VERY-low for a vintage British speaker designed to be run with tubes. But the E90 also seems to be a big step up from its lesser brethren. I also heard great things about that early '80's series that came right after. I got into the W*0 models and fell in love with the early ones with the cone tweeters, especially the W90's. Not the last word in low-bass control, but they're the cat's frigging meow for Beatles and a lot of other things. I've never heard horn instruments, classic guitars, and the Hammond B3 organ sound more-realistic, and the same goes for the Mellotron, plus the Echoplex, Fuzz Face, and other vintage FX from those days. They seem to love anything based in the analog world, and I think that's a big part of why that old music sounds so good. Classic rock, old blues rock, psychedelic, funk/soul (like Otis Redding, Isaac Hayes, Al Green, Stevie Wonder, etc.), plus basically anything else that was recorded prior to, say, 1975. That's the era where the old Super 3 cone tweeters rule. Once I heard the W90's, which have two of those in each cab, there was just no going back. My favorite tweeter. For the White Album or "All Things Must Pass", for me, there's no other.

 

To the OP, I assume the bass response improved a lot after putting those Harbeths in a smaller room. Those don't need much power either, right? It's been a while since I looked at the specs, but I know those P3ESR's were like more than double the original price of my Denton reissues. And I've been told that they have the kind of clarity and focus that one would equate with a speaker in that price range. My Dentons have excellent mid clarity and focus, but I'd wager that the Harbeths will easily justify their higher price in terms of their high-end clarity, presence, and complexity. Often times, more than anything else, those are the qualities that don't come cheap.


Here are the Dentons (Not my pair, obviously). Less expensive and not quite in the same class in terms of the qualities I mentioned above, but damn-good for their $1000 original price. Also a British brand, but they were definitely going for something not quite as "reserved" as the Harbeths. I like both. I especially like the look of the P3ESR's in the darker finish they have.


Here's the darker P3ESR finish I mentioned...



Seeing the two models together, one being twice the price of the other, you can see where that many went. Harbeth makes some beautiful speakers. My Dentons go down to 44hz (at I think +/-2dB), but I wouldn't go waging a clarity war against those P's. But I guess its about the music you like most. I don't listen to much modern jazz, modern acoustic artists, or classical, so I wanted something very-engaging that would basically keep me happy with POST-1975 music (They're quite-good with modern electronic music), and I keep the big W90's for the classic stuff.

 

The designer of Harbeth speakers is Alan Shaw and he has said many times that getting the voice right is key to getting good sound.

 

Bob, how a speaker that lacks bottom end can even come close at reproducing something that resembles the sound of an orchestra or a piano or a cello? Classical music has bass, you know

 

Yes, I know! And I was reminded of it just this evening as I was listening to Dvorak's 8th Symphony on my Compact 7s and had to cut back on the overpowering bass of the Telarc recording (Previn, LA Phil). I've never found myself wanting for bass bass response with properly positioned C7s. Of course, I've never heard the P3, but I suspect they would do rather well with the chamber music I suggested, provided they are well positioned in an appropriately sized room.
-Bob

 

You 're right, for chamber music they are not bad at all.
Don't get me wrong. The speakers that continue the BBC tradition, such as the Harbeth, Stirling, KEF etc. are great choices for classical music precisely because of their true-to-timbre reproduction of acoustic instruments. However the LS3/5A and its clones were never meant to be used in any other way than to monitor spoken word broadcasts in a small space.

The lack of bass which is to be expected in a tiny sealed box such as the LS3/5A is a deal breaker for me, although I had fun listening to a lot of different pairs through the years.
IMO there is no competition between the LS3/5A and the larger speakers in the BBC line, such as the LS3/6, Monitor 40 etc. Here a picture of my Stirling LS3/6 side by side with the KEF Model 101. The picture says it all

 

I understand completely, 5. BTW, those 101 speakers were supposed to be pretty nice for what they were intended. Always wanted to hear a pair.
-Bob

 

Yes there are very good, as a matter of fact, I liked them more than my old Rogers LS3/5a. I thought that the KEF gave me a more accurate reproduction of what was recorded. I looked at your profile and I saw that you own the KEF LS50s which I also own. I have compared the two, the 101 and the LS50, and they sound very similar although the LS50 excel in fuller bottom end and more dynamics. But their sonic signature is essentially the same.

 

Yikes! I need to update my profile. I did like the LS50s very much, but I sold them recently. I had too many speakers, and they just could not supplant my Compact 7s for any appreciable length of time.
-Bob

 

If you find yourself up in the Boston area, come on over and have a listen through my Fisher tubes!