Petition launched to reintroduce Technics turntables (Update: The SL-1200 is Back!)*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by englishbob, May 27, 2014.

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  1. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Vibrations are of course picked up from different sources, the cartridge isn´t the only one. The sound we will hear has a character where the different sources to that character, is in reality impossible to know. If we isolate the TT better we will hear that, if no vibrations are coming from the drive system, we will that, etc.
    Very, very small differences can be heard normally, and there isn´t one specific contribution to the sound, that we have to deal with first; we can deal with any effect to the total sound, and it will be positive.
     
  2. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Well, I do like Rega arms and Naim CD players, not really into anything Linn, (too scarred by the 1980s perhaps), and actually I do think that modern SMEs are awesome, old SMEs not quite so much, I could have added some Japanese arms to the list; a Neat G-36, an Acos, a standard Technics SL-1210 arm and the rather clever arm on my JVC, I really wasn't thinking in outdated or nationalistic terms, I'll happily take a Jelco if offered. I've always based my opinions on what I can hear rather than any perceived consensus, I don't think the stock arm is rubbish, I don't believe I've stated that, I recently set up a stock 1210 with an Ortofon Concorde, OM 10 and through a good phono stage it sounds very decent, but the arm does have limitations. I started trying to get higher performance from 1200/10s more than twenty years ago, I sat down listened to a selection of different carts to see what sort of performance it was capable of and I reached the conclusion that the arm just isn't good enough to handle higher end carts, it hits a wall in it's performance. One can argue that the Technics wasn't designed for £1,000 MCs and 99.9% of owners won't be mounting them, that is absolutely valid and if you are never going to try something higher than a 2m Black you probably have no reason to consider upgrading the arm, but if you want to hear what a 1210 is capable of then in my opinion the most obvious thing holding it back is the arm. I think a Rega arm board cost me £30, removing the old arm and board takes less than an hour and obviously it can be restored, I already have a selection of arms so no cost, but I guess under £150 will get you a RB 300 so for well under £200 anyone can try a different arm and decide for themselves if they prefer it or if it's better, I know some don't think so. That's the beauty of the 1200/10s they are so easy to work on, except for too many screws, and for me they provide a decent direct drive motor unit at a giveaway price. I know that some people go much, much further in modding their Technics and spend many, many thousands doing so, that's their choice, personally I'd just buy a better deck to start with, but my experience is that the deck can handle better arms and they allow the Technics to fulfill more of it's potential, if people are happy with stock they aren't wrong and good for them, all I am saying is that I believe it can be upgraded, both easily and cheaply and that was something I was wanting to do all the way back in the mid-nineties. If the street price of the standard version is under £1,000 then I suspect I'll be selling a couple of 1210 MK IIs and mounting something "better" on a brand new shiny Technics, I may even try my SME IV although it will definitely be returning to my Orbe, I mainly listen to belt drives, but I like having a decent direct drive around and the new Technics may be it, I just want to extract the most from it and if that means swapping arms so be it.

    Just to add some context, my Gyro SE is on it's fourth arm and my Orbe is on it's second and I have a 1210 on it's third, each swap has seen an upgrade in performance for each deck, I'm not one of those people who always chops and changes, those arm swaps are over the course of 15 years, but I will always try and improve my system where possible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
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  3. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    A more expensive cartridge doesn´t need a better arm than a less expensive. I anything it´s mostly the other way around.
     
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  4. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Well, in my experience putting four figure MC carts on cheap tone arms doesn't produce great results, putting them on £500+ tone arms does and putting them on £1500+ tone arms really reveals what they are capable of, your experience may differ, but I have disagree with you.
     
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  5. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    That isn´t really what I meant. An expensive cartridge isn´t more compromised by an arm than a less expensive one. Both cartridges are in principle equally compromised, both will respond better to a better arm. The difference sometimes is that the more expensive cartridge doesn´t transfer the same energy to the arm; they can be heavier and better damped, so they can in reality be easier handled by a lesser arm.
     
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  6. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    In a sense yes, but the difference is that because the better cartridge, and I use that term rather than more expensive, is capable of much greater information retrieval than the lesser cartridge then even if you could quantify the percentage by which they were compromised and that was in fact equal the performance loss for the better cart would still be greater. You are looking at it in terms of energy transfer whilst I look at it in terms of information retrieval and the arm being optimised for the cartridge to accurately retrieve the maximum information from the grooves. Obviously there are all sorts of other variables meaning not all carts are suitable for all arms regardless of price.

    By the way, does your 1210 have a stock arm, a modded stock arm or a different arm?
     
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  7. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    But this isn´t how it works. What we have are arms that are more or less prone to vibrate or resonate. It really isn´t depending on any information 'retrieval'.
    It is about added frequencies, freq variations and noise depending on arm vibrations. If a cartridge is very well made the demands on the arm is less.

    And it was You who spoke of expensive cartridges.
     
  8. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Yes, I did say expensive, but I thought that I should clarify it to mean better, it's not always the case that more money equals better.

    I think most modern carts are "well made", I've witnessed Van den Huls being made from start to finish and Goldring coils being wound, the differences in performance are generally down to improved materials, closer tolerances and differing stylus profiles, a bit like arms, better materials, better bearings, closer tolerances and better engineering will generally result in improved performance. I think the opposite to you, it's easier to get an acceptable level of performance from a cheap cart with a conical profile that an expensive cart with some more exotic stylus profile, better or more expensive carts often require more precise setting up and that is exactly where more expensive better arms often come into their own, although in that area I'd say the Technics does very well for it's price point, it is a nice and easy arm to set up with good engineering.

    I'm sort of avoiding the whole vibration energy transmission debate because I'm not entirely sure if you are referring to just the arm and cartridge or the entire deck and it's environment, I don't think you can discuss the former without including the latter and that's a whole other discussion.
     
  9. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    What I didn´t agree with at all was the notion that a 'better' arm is more suitable for a 'better' cartridge. Remember here we´re not talking about arms that are completely rubbish. In fact a 'better' arm is more suitable to a more standard cartridge. This standard cartridge will normally transfer more vibrations to the arm than a 'better' cartridge will. A better arm will handle this better. If we take a standard cartridge, but make it more damped and heavier, improving the mechanics of the cartridge; using the same arm this cartridge will of course perform better, it will transfer less vibrations to the arm.
    Why people not normally put very expensive (better) cartridges on a very cheap TT is understandable, but it not the same subject.
     
  10. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    What I find strange is people who haven't heard the GAE comparing its arm to the 1210 simply because they look alike. It's a completely new arm with new materials and engineering.
     
    Aftermath likes this.
  11. Erik Tracy

    Erik Tracy Meet me at the Green Dragon for an ale

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    Well, it's natural to say it is a duck if it looks like a duck....but too quick to judge not having heard it 'quack'. :D
     
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  12. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    I agree. I think that without considering "the whole vibration energy transmission debate" tonearm evaluation becomes an exercise in futility. The induced vibration into a TT from it's support surface caused by the vibration of the room caused by the vibrations of the music will significantly overwhelm any transference of groove vibration from the stylus/cantilever into the arm. Until the gross room vibrations are isolated from, the arm can't really be heard. (This is in general and related to the volume of the music in a given room.)

    BTW, I got a huge lift when I went from a MM Ortofon OM40 (arguably very close to the Black) to a MC Ortofon Kontrapunkt b on my KB moded 1200 MKII. But I got an even bigger lift when I finally put in decent TT isolation.
     
  13. Could be, but the tonearm does a very simple job and past a certain performance point, there are no measurable differences, let alone audible differences in my experience, and what you are paying for is bling.
     
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  14. We are talking about very, very minor differences in performance here. Tonearms are not rocket science. In fact, they are special applications of the very first tool invented--one that even chimpanzees use--the lever.
     
  15. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    I think everyone has made their views known about tonearms, and what we really need are more pics of this turntable.
     
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  16. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    I've heard it and the arm looks similar because it's an almost identical design, the changes are to the bearings or materials used, not the layout or the thinking behind it, when I spoke to the Technics rep he did mention the new arm tube material, but the thing they were really proud of was the deck and the all new internals making it a "SP 10 competitor" in his words. Without having a GAE at home and putting it through it's paces in my system I can't make any definitive judgements, but those new internals make the deck the better part of the package and the bit I'm interested in, for me the arm is not very exciting and it would have been interesting to see what Technics would have come up with if they'd started from scratch, or chosen to sell it as a high end motor unit.
     
  17. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    The differences might be minor in some cases, I think they can vary quite a bit. In the context of sound differences in audio, sometimes they can be considered substantial.
    Even if the arm is sort of a stick, in one end we have a cartridge that is extremely sensitive to vibrations; so even if not rocket science, we will have some fundamental mechanics working against an inert performance. It is very difficult to keep the cartridge only reading modulations.

    In theory we have a fundamental resonance between the cantilever compliance and total eff mass. Below that freq the needle and the arm should move simultaneously, than we have phase shift of 180 degrees at res point, and over that freq only the cantilever should move. The problem is to implement this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  18. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    That is rubbish. High end moving coils need a more rigid arm with better bearings. There are vast differences between arms. The one thing that may make some people think as you do were the RB250/RB300 which are good enough to accommodate high end MC cartridges but not necessarily able to optimise their sound. Also bear in mind that 70s designs such as SME III and Infinity black Widow were specifically designed for high compliance MMs that operate at low tracking weights and therefore not suited to modern MC cartridges of medium to low compliance.
     
  19. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    I think I have explained the reasons for how we should look at it. I will try to think if I can explain it better, but for now I believe my posts in this matter are good enough.
     
  20. Agreed as to the mechanics you explained.
     
  21. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Actually far more concerning than arm quality is the puny un-shielded switch mode power supply with (just a plastic cover (top and left of image). An over spec'd toroidal transformer in a separate enclosure is desirable. First thing I would change to eliminate electrical noise.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. brillwill

    brillwill Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Texas
    I would honestly be shocked if anyone can identify the electrical noise from the puny switch mode power supply. I would also venture to say 2000 pounds toward a tonearm would not significantly improve the sound over that same money put into newer speakers or a dedicated musical sub for your existing 2 channel setup.

    I think it's a matter of perspective. If the GAE is the cheapest component in the chain, and you're already running 5 figure speakers with monoblock power amps w/ some high priced MC cart, then you are probably in the market for GAE upgrades. As a budget audiophile and enthusiast, I honestly can't find any faults with the turntable as it is currently offered. I am coming to the conclusion that 4K is actually a very reasonable price for what you are getting, and I can see myself running this table for the next 20 years without worrying about if my turntable is holding me back. Do I think that it can hold up to turntables costing 3-5x the price? I honestly have no idea - I would hope not, but at the same time I can't think about how much better my system could sound with a Continuum Caliburn. The quality of the sound, the inky black background, the rock solid speed stability made for a significant, compelling upgrade from the VPI Scout 1.1 in essentially every aspect - I miss absolutely nothing about the VPI and I loved that deck.

    I am excited to see how KAB and users like Classicrock will further mod out the GAE. Maybe this table will come close to the performance of those 30k direct drive units with these mods?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  23. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    I came close to the arm upgrade on my M5g only because of all the comments people made and not from any dissatisfaction. There are some really cool "looking" arms out there but the cost starts at about 2k (arm collar board cable).

    In the end I did upgrade the arm to the vpi 10.5 and with that arm upgrade I also got a 20lb platter different drive mechanism and heavy ass plinth. I decided for that kind of cash I'd be better off with a second deck.

    I'm very happy with the factory arm on the M5G. I could really only see upgrading it if a cart that I had to have didn't work with it. In fact my best cart (Grado ref Master woodie) works better on the technics than the VPI.
     
    brillwill likes this.
  24. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Are those images of the GAE arm?
     
  25. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    GAE arm is bottom right image.
     
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