Demoed ProAc D2, Harbeth 30.1, and a few others...

Summary of findings when auditioning some stand-mount speakers back-to-back one enjoyable morning recently. All through my own amp (Croft Integrated). Aim is to find some consummate all-rounders that can handle a full enough range (ideally not need a sub) and sound full at lower volumes but still happy when pushed. Looking to replace the ProAc 140/2.

Music mainly used:

• Tom Waits, Real Gone. (Some great instrumentation, textured vocals, and dense arrangements on this. Hoist That Rag is a killer test track for testing speakers’ ability to handle lower-frequency depth, space, and articulation. So many fall down here when you know what it sounds like – by bottoming out and/or squashing the dense detail together - even some larger floorstanders. If a speaker can’t do this track I ain’t interested!)
  
• Natalie Merchant, s/t.
  
• Dire Straits, Brothers in Arms
  
• Neil Young/CH, Everybody Knows this is Nowhere

I didn’t really have my eye on the speakers below, mostly due to apparent limited output looking at their size and specs, but briefly auditioned them anyway for interest as they were in store:

• Russel K Red 50 (didn’t have the 100s in). Looked forward to hearing these but couldn’t gel. Understandably limited bass depth but the even the vocals sounded a bit tizzy and non-focussed. Store manager said they do seem amp-dependant, so could have been a mis-match, or some other quirk as they seem well-loved in places.
  
• ProAc DB1. Much more natural performance – lovely, balanced, nice imaging - but you can’t push them too much.
  
• Harbeth P3ESR. Very sweet mids (Natalie Merchant rendered beautifully) but seriously limited output. Obviously didn’t expect anything like big speaker performance, but we (with my very musical wife) were surprised just how quickly they ran out of LF ideas. Even electric guitars (not bass) seemed to lack depth. Probably great in a small space with easy music, though. And I gather they’re quite power hungry, but would they really need more?
  
• Westbrook Aurical. Made locally in northwest England. Seriously impressive small speakers with a nice grasp of texture, spacing, and warmth, and not lacking oomph. Well worth an audition. Left a lasting impression.
  
• Kudos C1. What a classy speaker. Incredible subtlety and delicacy with surprising power for the size. Quite seductive. Holographic imaging. A searing treble at times though – and the store manager said they do need careful matching.

And now the two I mainly came to listen to:

• ProAc Response D2. Crikey. A larger speaker than the previous lot, and more expensive, but still couldn’t believe the top-to-bottom performance of these. Everything was fulsome, but tight and detailed, and very open and breathing. Natural-seeming timbre. It was also the most emotional connection either of us had felt to the music so far either – whatever that means. Nice defined imaging but still with enough breadth/spread to enjoy off-axis. Even with my most critical and objective head on I couldn’t find anything they were doing particularly wrong as such. Not the ultimate bass output as the 140s, but more than made up for with that bit more tautness and definition which will suit the smaller lounge we’re moving to.
  
  
• Harbeth M30.1. I couldn’t wait to hear these. Quite astonishing mids that kind of blew us away at first, but focus back in and the upper and lower frequencies seemed to be playing just too much of a supporting role. Both seemed excessively recessed in the presentation – ie not just rolled-off. Vocals, and strings, had more forward projection than any of the other speakers, but over time they seemed like a separate entity; on a different plane. Somewhat in-your-face. I can imagine at times they’d give you that sense of the performer in the room with you like perhaps few other speakers could muster, and if that’s your thing then these would be truly heaven-sent! But, on the whole, I/we were much more drawn to the balance of the D2s. An entirely personal preference.
  
  Again, this was just with that amp and only in that decent-sized listening room, so many, many mileages may vary…

- Rob

 

Many thanks for sharing these insights. I love this kind of stuff.

Having auditioned the Russell K Red 100s on the end of my Croft kit (with the same 45W/channel) I can say that the Red 100s are fabulous speakers but they don't do whopping bass and they have relatively low sensitivity and might not therefore give you enough wellie. Certainly I had to wind up the volume much more with these versus the other speakers that I auditioned - which included Q Acoustics 2020is, Proac Studio 148s, Rega RX1s and Proac Response D18s.

I was on the hunt for new speakers in part because I felt that my Monitor Audio GR60s were too large for our new and smaller lounge and in part because a friend's homemade speakers did mid-range so much better than my own.

In the end, however, the trade off was never right. In the case of the standmounts I just lost too much of the prodigious bass that I'd become used to. In the case of the Studio 148s I gained even more prodigious bass (which I didn't need) and harsh upper mids (which were probably down to bad interactions with the room). In the case of the Response D18s I just didn't like their cold treble and detached bass.

So.... I ended up buying a pair of Monitor Audio GS60s via ebay. These gave me continuity in terms of prodigious bass plus most of the wonderful mid-range and treble and generally wonderful resolution and musicality of the Red 100s. Win, win, win.

What I consider my smartest move (in smug retrospect), however, was starting off with my old speakers in my new room and going on from there.

(We didn't do this with sofas, however. We bought smaller new electric recliner leather sofas to replace our old old larger fabric covered non-reclining sofas before we moved in only to end up replacing these with larger fabric covered non-reclining sofas after two and a half years of relative discomfort. That was an expensive mistake!)

 

Thanks.

Sounds like a result with your GS60s! Haven't had chance to listen to those. Interesting findings on the others. I rather liked the D18s but just found they couldn't hold it together under pressure like the Studio 140/2s I ended up with.

Incredible how much variation there is between speakers (like no other component); and is always amazing how things can either meet, exceed, or be nothing like what you might have come to expect from them in reviews etc. At least not with whatever gear and room you test them with.

Auditioning like that is like some kind of speed-dating and doesn't half whittle down the choices for further attention.

 

cool audition! I keep hearing good thing of proac d2!

did you use the same amp for all the speakers? what amp was used?

 

Yes, Croft Integrated used for all

 

45 WPC in 8 0hm?
harbeth and some other in your list would likely benefit from bigger amps. I wonder if you were to redo the audition with a very different amp, how would that affect the results. Harbeth p3esr are very dependant on the amplifier I use.

 

"Watts are a funny thing." (to quote someone I know).

The Croft amp has a load of muscle for a 45W/channel amp. In pre-power form it's especially impressive with vinyl because the phono stage isn't quieter than the CD stage, unlike on many amps.

Having said the above, I'm still debating whether or not to have mine upgraded to 90W/channel by Glenn Croft. He advises that it will sound slightly better but I'm not sure whether this will also lead to my prodigious bass becoming better controlled or just overblown.

 

Yes, 45 in to 8.

Interesting. Do you think both the Harbeth models would require more power? - and by how much, and to what effect? Or do they respond better to a different amp design?

The Harbeth site says for the P3 'Works with a wide range of amplifiers, ideally from 15W/channel', but you do keep hearing they benefit from higher outputs. Ditto for the M30.1, though: '... ideally from 25W'. I've also seen at least one owner swear they get good results from a low powered SET amp with the 30.1 (even if shot-down by HUG). I don't know.

I'm certainly not looking to change the Croft either way.

 

I read that my GS60s need 3-figure Watts to sound good but they're pretty damn good in my room with just 45W. If I go stand down the other end of the room - which is a 24 ft lounge/diner - then they don't sound quite so good with the volume wound up, but I'm not too worried since my proper listening position is on the sofa in front of them, not at the other end of our dinner table.

A home audition in your new lounge will tell the story. Have fun!

 

Thanks for a very interesting thread. I like both ProAc and Harbeth. I used to own the ProAc 1.5 that is similar to D18 but I ended up with the Harbeth 30.1 because I really love the mids. But the bass is not the same, not as articulate.

 

harbeth are warm speakers. the croft is also bit warm isnt it? maybe your croft have enough muscle, but amp synergy is real. doesnt surprise me that proac like tube amp, and harbeth SS amp. Anyhow, proac d2 I have heard often how good they are so its a excellent choice.

just a thought really, but since you tried all those speakers with only one amp, would be very interesting if you were to redo the audition but with a 100 WPC SS amp, if you would end up with the same conclusion!

 

The Croft is a hybrid amp. The preamp stage is tube and the input to the power stage is tube but the power output stage is solid state. 90W /channel would be achieved with a bigger transformer and heat sink.

Shiver. Would you describe the amp's sound as "warm".

 

What happened to your Primaluna??

 

Yeah, it's a pretty powerful-seeming 45w, and nothing I've tested with it has made it appear to break sweat, or led to clipping, subdued bursts etc.

Let us know if you go down the 90w route - interesting consideration for sure! I presume that's only an option in the separates and not integrated?

 

Thanks for confirming that. What amp have you used them with?

If you are a mids kinda guy then the 30.1 really would appear to be a joy to live with.

 

Warm? Yes and no. It seems inherently to the warmer side of neutral, but the joy with it to me is you can tailor the clean, open, natural sense of power with the input valves of choice. I don't like any sense of peering through either cool steely-blue or warm amber-vision glasses with components, and feel it's about right.

Same test with 100 wps SS? - couldn't say, but indeed would be interesting to hear any differences!

As above, watts are indeed a funny thing. Before the Croft I had a PrimaLuna valve (35 wpc) and before that a Cambridge 840a V2 SS (120 wpc) - both drove the (albeit sensitive) ProAc 140s. I had them both at the same time for a while and was amazed to find the difference in perception when registering the same dB output. At what seemed the same listening level by ear the PL constantly registered a lower dB. When performing at the same dB reading you'd swear the PL was turned up more. And overall it seemed by far the more powerful amp. Fuller sound and more confident projection. Whatever was causing that. It was only when really cranking up more quietly recorded music you felt the Cambridge was holding it together better.

 

Well it blew a power valve/transistor, which was starting to go aflame when I caught it... I had it repaired and it was fine... but then moving in with my partner and her kids I wanted something that I could leave unattended, or they could use, without any seeds of pyrotechnic doubt.

Not knocking PL as it was an ace amp and these things happen - just a lifestyle thing.

 

Will do.

Glenn Croft can advise regarding 90W and your integrated. Just drop him an email. (That's how I got to learn about the 90W in the first place.)

 

Thank you for the review.

Wife and I may be moving to smaller digs in the future and the Response D2 may be a good fit in replacing my large Vandersteens.

I wonder how the D2 will sound with my McIntosh integrated?

 

Cheers.

I don't know re the McIntosh to be honest - and never actually heard one! Only thing I'd say is the D2s (and all ProAcs I've listened to) are essentially pretty neutral (not warm) and don't lack treble, so wouldn't pair with bright gear if it's that way at al.

 

Sounds like a good day of listening. If you like the Croft, and liked the ProAc's, I see no need for you to look further! No point in hunting down an amp that will make you prefer Harbeth's or any other speaker. That kind of chase will have you running in circles. There's this thing with Harbeth lovers where they always seem to think that when someone prefers another speaker, then they must have done something wrong or used an improper amp. Harbeth's are nice speakers, and I've always wanted to love them, but when I bought SHL5's and later 30.1's they both left me cold. It's best to embrace the idea that they're not the be all end all of speaker design, and they simply won't meet the demands of every listener.

 

Gee, that must be the first time that's ever happened. Kevin Deal tells me on and on about how 'He's never had a piece of Primaluna gear fail'.

 

Actually I have used all kinds of amps, just to try, because I find it interesting, so everything from tubes to lots of power. And I have preferred the tubes in the end, so that's what I keep using. Haven't found that big difference though, the speakers are more or less the same, but I use a Jadis Orchestra Reference since a couple of years. Really really good, but it's not for electronic music or steady beats lovers. I mostly listen to slow rock and jazz. In the summer time it's good with something else than tubes, otherwise it's too warm.

 

Wise words. It's all so down to personal preference, with no substitute for finding out for yourself hey.

The Croft does have a 'corner-stone' feel to it in the system now that I wouldn't change.

 

Really? Well that's cool. Great amps. (still wouldn't advise leaving it all alone though!...)