Tail up or Tail down for your Ortofon Black 2M; how much is too much?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by dadonred, Apr 29, 2016.

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  1. dadonred

    dadonred Life’s done you wrong so I wrote you all this song Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Hi, I recently acquired a new VPI Scout and selected the Ortofon Black. In setting it up, I have a VTF of 1.50g but I'm quite tail-up. I've observed in a few discussions that people may prefer tail-down for the Ortofon Black.

    As it is a new cart/turntable, I barely have 10 hrs on it. However, I think I'm happy with the sound. To me, it does not appear too bright (the same tail-down folks seem to indicate that it will improve bass and mid-range); my phono stage is an XPS-1 and my amp is a Raven Audio Blackhawk. I've also seen threads that indicate tail-up may help get the infamous 92 degree angle.

    When I saw tail-up, I would guess I'm about 5 degrees above parallel at the pivot end. I guess I can compare an ALAC file to the same song on vinyl (NAD M51 DAC into the Blackhawk). I don't have access to a usb microscope to observe any closer. VTA seems parallel to me.

    Because the Scout and the cart are new to me (and quite the upgrade for me, I'll add), I'm just seeking the collective wisdom here. (And whether I'm just too scared to mess with it.)

    Thanks for reading!
     
  2. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Its fine. We all know how vta/ sra can affect playback . Leave well alone.
    Its a wise man who knows when he,s happy
     
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  3. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    What do You mean by 'VTA seems parallel'?
     
  4. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    If you read Geoff husband,s ( TNT Audio ) very well researched article on vta/sra it may make you realise how overrated. The whole business is.
    To give an example on a 12 " arm one has to move arm. 5.27 mm to alter vta/sra by 1 degree.......
    Also there is a school of thought that its the change in arm pivot point(. Centre of gravity? )that one can hear when raising/ lowering arm rather than vta/sra.
    Also because of the run out / warp on a record, stylus / cantilever arc of movement due to warp causes 7 degree variation in vta/sra.
    Food for thought?
    2m black is a superb cartridge!
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
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  5. Drewan77

    Drewan77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK/USA
    If you are happy, leave it for now and just listen to music. After a few weeks familiarisation you will be in a better position to judge whether the overall sound is bright or lacking in bass. If that is the case then I believe the VPI Scout has the facility to adjust arm height (two allen screws in the base & a knurled nut below the pivot point to adjust up/down).
     
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  6. tman53

    tman53 Vinyl is an Addiction

    Location:
    FLA
    I agree, if you are happy with the way it sounds, leave it. You may need to make an adjustment after the cartridge breaks in.
     
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  7. dadonred

    dadonred Life’s done you wrong so I wrote you all this song Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Sorry about that. I mean the rod that lays across the groove in the jmw9 tone arm is parallel to the platter surface, meaning the angle of the cart is perpendicular to the platter surface. This is the method for Scout set-up.
     
  8. dadonred

    dadonred Life’s done you wrong so I wrote you all this song Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Yes it does and thanks for your reply!
     
  9. dadonred

    dadonred Life’s done you wrong so I wrote you all this song Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Thanks for both your replies, Thorensman. I always appreciate your advice on SHF!
     
  10. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I have been running the 2M black for about 6 weeks now after trashing my MC stylus for the final time. It sounds better than my outgoing Dynavector 20X2L which was really fussy about VTA.
    So far I have set the tonearm to absolute level- no tail up or down- and a closeup of the SRA looks very close to the 92-degree position- and it sounds fantastic and keeps getting better.
    In this position I have not had any of the issues people report- no groove noise (it is super quiet), no overly bright sound (it is even from bottom to top and seems to have a really sweet midrange) and it tracks better than the Dynavector.
    This IS my long term cartridge, I don't even want to have the Dynavector re-tipped.
     
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  11. Hershiser

    Hershiser Forum Resident

    For clarification that is the azimuth setting you are referring to. And yes parallel on that is good.
     
  12. dadonred

    dadonred Life’s done you wrong so I wrote you all this song Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Yes thanks.
     
  13. katstep

    katstep Professional Cat Herder

    I agree to leave it and listen for a while until you get used to it. After that, I encourage you to experiment, as the Black will take on a very different tonality and characteristic when you experiment with dropping the tail. At least it did on my VPI Traveler. In my experience, the sound got darker, richer, and more live (if that makes sense) and tamed what I thought was a little too much brightness. It took a while to dial it in, as there's a breaking point in dropping the tail where it just gets muddy, but you'll know when you reach it. I'd never had a TT with such easily adjustable VTA before the Traveler, and was surprised at what a difference the adjustment made. YMMV.
     
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  14. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    My pleasure. When vinyl is right , it's very right!
     
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  15. Catcher10

    Catcher10 I like records, and Prog...duh

    For breakin period on cartridge set it to what the mfg recommends on VTA and VTF, once you are past what they say is breakin (usually about 30 hrs) then play with it and see what sound you like. Once the cantilever is more fluid a change in VTF might affect sound, also critical to get the azimuth as best as possible on the 2M Black, since it is a Shibata.

    Again, once past breakin...play with it and find your ears sweet spot.
     
  16. dadonred

    dadonred Life’s done you wrong so I wrote you all this song Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Yes, my main concern is what angle for the arm above or below parallel to platter is "too much" such that it would harm either the cantilever or records. So I'm interested in the range of allowable angles. If it won't really harm either, then case closed.
     
  17. Drewan77

    Drewan77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK/USA
    I can't see a real world situation where VTA angle is likely to do damage - the 2M series run very close to the vinyl surface so excessive tail-down would just bottom out the rear of the cartridge, maybe causing it to skip & you would presumably avoid that. As for too much tail-up, the angle would have to be crazy (& probably beyond the adjustment of your arm) to cause the front of the cantilever itself to scrape the surface. Bad alignment or azimuth are much more likely to cause excessive or unequal wear than VTA settings. However, if you want to try different angles within 'common sense' parameters, by all means do so.

    - Don't stress too much - find a setting that leaves the bottom of the cart pretty much parallel with a 'typical' LP and just enjoy your music collection from there (my arm has a micrometer & that's what I did).
    - Vinyl thicknesses vary from thin 45s/LPs up to 200gm so achieving the 'perfect' angle is a compromise unless you go totally OCD and adjust every time. Life's too short to do that !
     
  18. Paul H

    Paul H The fool on the hill

    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    I've been playing around with the VTA on my ProJect Xpression: it's amazing how much one has to move the tonearm to get even a fraction of a degree off horizontal.

    I've noticed with my 2M Black (roughly 60 hours on it), that the differences between horizontal and roughly 1.5 degrees tail down are subtle but noticeable. The bass is just a little fuller and the top end, while still very detailed, isn't quite so brash. That said, I'm well aware of perception bias at play here, so I'm going to do some more "serious" A/B-ing to see what I prefer.

    I'd welcome thoughts on others' optimum settings for the Black.
     
    CharlesS likes this.
  19. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Last black i set up was as yours with the rest down a mm or so. Did not need much bias .
    A lot of this is down to preference of sound. Also loading and capitance , choice of cables all affect overall.
    I recently changed loudspeaker cables and found a lot more clarity, and needed to lower rear of tone arm to compensate.
     
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