R-2R Ladder DACs (in production 2015)

Go and listen for your self rather than basing your opinion on what someone else said. Lampizator might be the very best that you have ever heard, or you may prefer Audio Note... Who knows? Put it in your system and play the music that you like! If nothing else, you will have some fun playing your favourite music : )

 

Lampizator is certainly among the non-R-2R DACs receiving quite a bit of attention. There are so many boutique names out there to compete with PS Audio and Ayre (anyone hear the Codex?), etc. It wouldn't be possible for nearly any of us to home audition enough of the R-2R, FPGA (all converted to DSD), traditional delta-sigma, etc to draw a conclusion as to whether or not it isn't the implementation rather than the means of D/A conversion. I'd hope that any short list for those in market would be open to all great implementations irrespective of overall approach.

In any event, I'm pleased that we were able to highlight a few modern R-2R DACs in this thread. It won't be long before the audiophile server market is sorted out as well. Those of us clinging to pre-2010 digital front ends are going to be in for a treat!

 

But he brings up a good point - what tube models have you heard that you base your claims of inferior sound on?

 

I was responding to a member who pronounced that only tube-based DACs deliver top sound quality. I'm not sure where it can be found that I ever stated or even insinuated that tube analog stages were inherently inferior. What's unfortunate is that you and a few others will read any number of horrors between the lines of anything I post. It would be nice if the personal slights would stop.

 

Well an importer blasting a brand he doesn't carry is similar to the many dealers I have me who do the same. Oh yeah that AN is bad - they've only been selling DACs for 20 years and everyone in the industry who is selling R-2R today or NOS copied Audio Note - they did it first. (At least in the sense that they went back to the initial CD format design). They also were first without filters.

To be fair to the poster who noted noise - early AN DACs and CD players didn't get along with certain preamps due to impedance mismatches. So if a person was using a SS preamp or even certain tube preamps with those early players I did read reports of issues (noise may have been one of them but it's been a long time and I can't quite remember). Remember AN is building as a complete AN system and they probably were not concerning themselves with how the CD player would work with your average run of the mill SS amp.

Imitation is the highest form of flattery - Fikus of Lampizator's favorite CD replay was Audio Note. The guy salivated over Audio Note. He also like the level system which he has somewhat emulated in his own company.

That's why when I read some internet hack come on forums and tell people that AN sucks but Lampizator is great it makes them look soooooo stupid, because if they say this they are saying that Fikus is a deaf hack because AN made his absolute favorite sounding Digital back before he began selling his own units. So if a person says AN is bad you are saying Fikus can't hear. And if Fikus can't hear why would you buy his DACs?

And the arguments over which would be better is kind of strange - they're different designs - it's entirely possible that one will sound better than another in a different set up. Adding an AN DAC to any system is no guarantee it will be an improvement. The transport cables, preamp, amp, speakers have a say in it. I heard the CD 1.1 in a Sim Audio and Sonus Faber set-up. Against Sim Audio's CD player (which uses the same transport mechanism - the Philips L1210 and a Linn Streamer). There were about 5 of us in the room listening and on the first track the AN CD1.1 sounded rather lean - vocals from the throat rather than the chest. After about 5 tracks from different artist's the AN did win them over basically because it could differentiate the recordings better - the first album came off lightweight while the other two had deeper fuller bass. Going just by that track AN probably comes in third. But after all five were played the Sim Audio made everything sound rather exactly the same - deep full bass same rounded treble same general effect. The AN turned the recordings in and out. That doesn't though make everything sound "nice."

Take my old AN K/SPe - this is a very nice speaker - now AN fans - take this speaker and run a set of Odyssy Stratos 200 Watt amps on it with a middling SS CD player. Many years back when I owned this speaker - I went to a fellow's house who owned the exact same speakers. BRIIIIIGHT tinny and thin. All the gear he ran was generally well respected. The results he was getting with the same speakers was downright appalling. The other audio guys at the gathering quickly wrote of the K and I suppose I couldn't blame them but I suppose I expect more from audiophiles to consider something called synergy. The fact that the guy had the K's positioned against recommendation had some sort of pucks on the top of them (some tweak he probably read about in some magazine that cost 40 times what they should), and running high watt high damping factor high negative feedback amps in a room far far too big for them, probably didn't much put them in their best light.

The last thing to note Don is that a lot of people simply can't afford Audio Note systems and when you can't afford stuff you try to delude yourself into thinking that some $2,000 DAC is going to better $20k DACs. You don't have Bill Gates bank account so you rant and rave about a $2k unit and try to convince yourself it's a giant killer and you're smarter than the deeper pocketed audiophools who spent ten times more and get worse sound. I've been on forums since 1998 and these "giant killers" make the boards for a few years and always drop off the map - remember those nOhr speakers that were the best sounding things in the history of audio? Whatever. I tried out a number of them - rarely were they even good let alone the second coming.

Granted I don't like the price of some gear either and I wish I could afford half the things I want - I mean I can afford a lot of them but I choose not to get nutty on it. But I don't bury my head in the sand and pretend. I auditioned a Shindo Petrus Preamp which is something like $50,000 into $100k AN Kegon monoblocks into the same AN E speakers that Steve Hoffman is using - the AlniCo version and it was probably a top 5 home audition of a stereo that I've heard. I'll never afford that but I don't try to pretend that what I can afford is as good - it's not. I really like my Line Magnetic 219IA but it's just not even REMOTELY in that class. Very few people seem willing to admit that there is better than they can happen to afford.

 

Richard, interesting how synergy between componenets can make or break a system!

but Especially when it comes to DAC, price is irrelevant. its the design that matters

the ec designs mosaic t at 1500 eur is better in many way then the 12k JR aeris. I dont think that it make sense buying 20k for a dac. the technology seems to be moving forward way too fast.

 

That is so true.

 

It is true that most of us, by far, can't afford a $50,000 system much less a single component at that price. It is also generally true that price and performance go together. There are, of course, gear manufacturers who go out of their way to design to the highest price point which their affluent consumer base will spend. In digital, well, that is just asking to be shamed.

 

Many people who have $50,000 systems can't afford them either. Instead, they've bought the entire system on credit or they have scrounged their entire savings and spent it all on audio gear--or a combination of both. You know those guys who never have any money, and are living paycheck to paycheck, but have a really nice BMW and are "car poor?" Audio can be the same way. In fact, I know some people like this--I don't understand spending above one's means, but to each his/her own.

 

I was really interested in the Ayre Codex while it was in pre-release. Largely because I like the PonoPlayer. Unfortunately, by the time it got to release I had lost interest in pursuing a Sabre based DAC for my main setup. The Sabre sound characteristics just seem to be at odds with the sound characteristics of my main headphone amp. I still like the PonoPlayer as a portable. I'm not as picky about portable listening. But I now view it as a waste of my time to audition a Sabre based DAC in my main system.

The PS Audio PerfectWave Junior looks interesting. But at $4K I can't get it for myself. I'd like to hear it with my amp just to find out what it's like. I consider it a good experience to listen to some gear I can't quite afford. That's how you learn about how things sound, how to find out what sort of sound qualities you like, and sometimes to find out what you don't like.

The iFi iDSD Pro is also interesting. And at $2K I could actually consider it in addition to my Gungnir Multibit.

I do like the Gungnir Multibit a lot. But it's not perfect at everything. The DAC is fantastic with some recordings. Some recordings let you know that maybe a different DAC would do better for that recording. The Schiit multibit isn't giving the ultimate in air or soundstage width. Soundstage width can feel a bit constrained. There is room for improvement for people looking for an airier and wider and more expansive sound.

 

I don't believe that there is a singular "Sabre sound" (or any chip, for that matter). I'd suggest that the vast majority of Sabre based DACs have an implementation shortcoming. If you do get a chance to audition the Codex, then please let us know!

 

Can't take it with you. Can't enjoy it at age 75, generally, as well as at 35-50.

 

I use to believe that it was the implementation that mattered more than the chip. Which was a reason I was willing to try the Geek Pulse Xfi crowd fund thing. I've now changed my mind. Every Sabre chip DAC I've heard has had that Sabre style of sound to some degree. Every one of them. And they've all had different implementations. Some going as far as developing their own filters and output stage rather than using the filters that are on the chip. Doesn't matter. They all still have that Sabre sound. Some hide it better than others. But it's still there. With that experience I generally consider it a waste of time for me to consider any Sabre based DAC. The mythical Sabre based DAC that doesn't have that Sabre sound is like a unicorn. Why keep chasing? Time to move on to different tech where the chance of finding what I'm chasing is far more likely.

My Cavalli Liquid Fire headphone amp is not kind to that Sabre sound. The amp is very transparent to the source and doesn't let that Sabre sound hide. I knew that the amp was very picky about DACs before I got it. I had spoken to several people who own it and similar Cavalli amps. All of those people had gone through several high quality DACs to find one that worked well with the amp. The amp is picky about source quality. People with the amp had to go through a couple of DACs and were ending up DACs like the Berkeley Alpha DAC and similar DACs. I feel fortunate to have only ended up with a Schiit Gungnir multibit. I feel fortunate that Schiit came out with their multibit designs when they did. Shortly after I bought the Cavalli amp a Berkeley Alpha DAC (first version) came up for sale locally. Not cheap. But it was a DAC I had heard with the Cavalli amp before and knew it would work. The Schiit multibits weren't available yet. I'm glad I waited. Saved me over a thousand bucks. My Geek Pulse Xfi is a very poor match with my Cavalli amp. My Schiit Gungnir Multibit is a very good match with that amp. The difference is obvious and not subtle. My PonoPlayer doesn't get along with the Cavalli amp either. Both the Xfi and PonoPlayer get along better with some of my lesser solid state amps. But even with those amps the Sabre sound is still there, just more masked and less obnoxious.

 

What is the general sound signature like on these R-2R DACs? Schiit now has a European distributor. I wonder how their products would compare with my Rega DAC which, I think, is NOS?

 

Another R2R if I've read correctly

Echo's End : Discrete Precision Resistor R-2R DAC | Digital to analog converter | Audiophile DAC by LessLoss »

 

They SEEM to be using a Soekris DAC board -- at least that is the board in their video next to the guy doing the layout. If that is the case, they should be at least giving Soekris credit. That aside, the Soekris board - which is a self-contained, incredibly flexible and, indeed, wonderful sounding, R2R DAC -- is available in DIY form for $265 for the 0.02% matched resistor version. The board has its own power supply regulation, so in its simplest form, you can connect a power transformer to it directly, stick an SPDIF input to it via a $7 pulse isolation transformer, and have your DAC ready to play. It benefits greatly from proper regulated power supply, however, which is what the LessLoss people are adding to it without a doubt, plus a USB-to-I2S bridge, etc.

Myself I have only started experimenting with this board and am waiting on parts to really soup it up, but even with just a cheap regulator this dac is absurdly good. I'll reserve sweeping judgements and specific comparisons for another time after I have built it up properly and have listened to it extensively but for now I can say it loses nothing to either the 47labs Progresssion or the Schiit Yggdrasil, which I have on hand to compare it to.

So this may be another attractive option for those who want the R2R sound and don't mind a little -- minimal, really -- DIY. Plus I am sure there will be commercial efforts employing this wonderful dac board springing up like mushrooms, although for an order of magnitude more money.

Not affiliated with Soekris in any way, etc. etc.

 

Are you aware of any beginner guides/how tos for this sort of project please?

 

Well, for the illustrated Soekris DAC build there are no better places than these two blogs; they outline the whole thing in detail:

Soekris dam1021 Sign Magnitude R-2R DAC »
H i F i D U I N O »

But the original, all-encompassing, source of info, including direct input from Soren, the DAC's designer, are the various threads on diyaudio.com -- just search there...

 

Thank you

 

Them Schiit Boys Did It Again »

 

It's pretty amazing to have essentially a Bifrost Multibit DAC in a smaller Modi size case and for $250. I'm still grinning at the thought. I'm thinking about how I could use it in a transportable setup. It's small enough and inexpensive enough.

 

I should add that my concern with using the Modi Multibit in a trasportable setup is its potential need/preference for warmup. If it's like the other Schiit multibits it would want to have a few hours of warmup before it gets its signature sound. And it would likely like to be left on all the time. Not ideal for a DAC in a transportable headphone setup where it gets unplugged and moved around.

 

The word from owners is that the Mimby (Modi Multibit) doesn't take long to warm up and the sound doesn't change as much as it does with the other Schiit multibit DACs. I think you could realistically use it in a transportable setup.

 

Holy @#$@.

I've had the BiFrost multibit for a couple of months now, and its pretty amazing. If it's even close this would be an incredible feat. I use it with an inexpensive HifiBerry Roon endpoint and its sublime.

I'm especially curious as I've owned the original Modi as well as the Modi 2 Uber and I'd say both are good but ultimately can't shake the budget DAC sound IMO. Compromises are inevitable in that form factor. Will this make me eat those words?

 

so the mimby is really like a bitfrost? Is there user comparison between both unit? Ill probably buy it!

I hope so, would be amazing and id be all over it!