Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums (part2)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MilesSmiles, Sep 16, 2011.

  1. Erik Tracy

    Erik Tracy Meet me at the Green Dragon for an ale

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    All I'm going on are some posts made on this forum inferring that the 2010 Rhino releases on LP were cut from the 2009 masters by Pearce.

    Do you have any definitive reference for who is credited with the 2010 180g Rhino release of MOR?
     
  2. 32XD Japan1

    32XD Japan1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania USA
    If you want to get all patronizing, that's on you. I didn't mean anything negative by the low end rumble comment at all. You chose to read something into it that I didn't mean.

    Let me restate this one more time since my initial statement was a bit convoluted.....

    You could have 2 identical source tapes, which are analog, however one could be be be a copy of a copy, meaning a higher generation source tape. Therefore after the transfer process to CD which is a digital medium, all 1's and zeros, which I do in fact understand, one CD could sound better than the other, due to the fact that one CD's data was generated from a higher generation analog source tape.. And yes I realize that a CD could be forwarded to a company rather than a tape. I may have jumbled up the point I was trying to make, so I hope this offers some clarification. You are correct in that two analog source tapes could not be "digitally identical". What I meant to say was after the transfer to CD, the two CDs could be digitally identical, but have slightly different sonics. :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  3. yesstiles

    yesstiles Senior Member

    I played my 1986 Castle of "Paranoid" in the car last night with my daughter, blasted to the highest level and it sounded warm, smooth and wonderful. At the end of "Fairies Wear Boots," she said "Dad, why don't drums sound that awesome in today's music?"

    But also IIRC, my 1986 CLACD of "Master of Reality" sounded really good when I last played it at home. "Sweet Leaf" has never sounded too good, but "Into the Void" was delightful!
     
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  4. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Yes. I own the LP. McMaster cut it.

    Google is also helpful. Here is Elusive Disc's info:

    Features:
    • 180g Vinyl LP
    • Lacquers cut by Ron McMaster at Capitol from the original analog album masters


    Black Sabbath Master Of Reality 180g LP-Elusive Disc »
     
  5. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I see what you mean and I was just taking a little jab. Responding in kind, really. :)

    Anyway, I know you believe that digitally identical discs can sound a little different. I personally think any differences would be so minor even if they exist that there isn't much point in worrying about it compared to huge differences we often discuss on this forum with different masterings from different source tapes and what not. And I always feel it kind of the right thing to do when some new members might see a recommendation for a rare Japanese CD and not realize it's the same thing as something more easily attainable that it should be pointed out. That's all.

    I'm a CD collector and have plenty of rare Japanese CDs, but I don't personally believe in cases where a US or German pressing exists which is the exact same that it is worth worrying about whether some real or imagined difference could exist between them. I'd rather find a mastering I like as opposed to worrying about different pressings of the exact same mastering.

    :targettiphat:
     
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  6. 32XD Japan1

    32XD Japan1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania USA
    I totally get your points. I am glad that these back and forths didn't turn into the kind of nasty arguments I see on here a bit. And I totally get that pointing out to new members a cheaper way of getting the same thing would be good info to pass on. I'm not a dogmatic guy by any stretch, I just throw my prefs out there for anyone that's interested. It doesn't mean I'm right, it's just what I hear.

    Finding the best mastering is and should be the goal, however I have done shoot-outs as I indicated earlier, where two CDs had the same mastering but one sounded better. And it was not always the Japanese version that won out, either.

    So on that point we disagree, but it's no big deal. I'm not out to make enemies on this forum, or throw the hammer down like a judge, as if to say that's the last word on the subject. Besides, I'm sure we both have far more important things going on in our individual lives, than to get hung up on something as trivial as whether identical CD masterings can have sonic differences. :)
     
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  7. ricks

    ricks Senior Member

    Location:
    127.0.0.1:443
    While in that scenario it may be plausible for the 2 resulting CD's to have matching peak levels, it is impossible for them to be digitally identical. First off they they simply would not be in digital sync.

    Peak levels can definitively determine different [non digital identical] CD's , but it in rare cases is not a determiner of identical discs. Most commonly that occurs when all levels are 100, 97.7, etc

    BTW folks here are the 1986 Ozzy era Castles I like even if they are no longer my preferred digital . At one time I was a big fan of the NEL versions only due to the bonus Live at Last tracks.

    - Paranoid
    - Vol 4
    - Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
    - Sabotage - some issues on 2 tracks the rest are really nice. The only 1986 Castle I ever found locally and was only $2.99
    - Live At Last
     
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  8. 32XD Japan1

    32XD Japan1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania USA
    So I am guessing that the point you are making is this:
    1. No two discs despite matching peak and gain values can be "digitally identical"
    2. Therefore, a Japan and US Pressing with identical peak and gain values could sound different.

    Am I correct in my understanding?
     
  9. ricks

    ricks Senior Member

    Location:
    127.0.0.1:443
    No you are not correct, not even close. This is not an attack but common sense dictates that with a forum screen name of "32XD Japan1"!!! your saying anything less than favorable about a Japan 1$t pressed CD seems highly unlikely.

    No two discs despite matching peak and gain values can be "digitally identical".

    You stated two discs from 2 different analog sources can be digitally identical the answer to that is NO or simply it is impossible. Analog UNLIKE digital is subject to many differentials on the source medium. A copy of tape is simply not 100% the same as the original. One of the reasons engineers like SH try to get the masters if possible. In no case will transfer of different analog tapes transfers yield digitally identical results. In fact 2 different transfers of the same analog tape won't even do that.

    Now 2 copies CD's copied from the same digital source [CD's can not have an analog reproduction master] of course can be digitally identical. As for matching peaks that's not 100% as I mentioned in my last post.

    Digitally identical mean all data is the same. The easiest way to check is via CRC32 values, MD5 hash; SHA256 value, etc. That proves mathematically they are the same.


    Therefore, a Japan and US Pressing with identical peak and gain values could sound different.
    As for the sound other than the variables of the gear, the temp of the playback gear, ones sinus's [ask any ENT DR or Audiologist how this relates to hearing] or the passage of time the discs will sound exactly the same as the tech can only reproduce exactly what is there. A tiny cadre here will argue that statement to the death but I find it funny that none of them are willing to learn the tech as well as they seem to be big sellers of 1st press discs in the classifieds and ebay. Audio speaking nothing brings out more venom than money, the next is ego....

    Now back to you forum screen name - I invite you to research the tech then do your compares of digitally identical discs [must be digitally identical] on fully warm gear [part of learning the tech]. Or "32XD Japan1" you can prove me right by continuing to state Japan 1st press CD's are better than any other discs with identical data.

    P.S. I once thought the same as you. I read many well written posts from a tiny but vocal faction on this forum. After 2 years of doing 75+ blind compares on fully warm gear I realized I had been taken. My goal is to prevent others from being conned as I was by those with $ based interests in expensive discs. From the PM's I receive I know I have "saved" at least a handful of good folks - which makes it all worth the effort! Of course they should still consider doing their own investigations, for that there is no substitute.

    Folks who want good digital sound; seek out the best digital mastering! To argue against that is a direct slap in the face to Mr Hoffman and the others in the same profession.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  10. 32XD Japan1

    32XD Japan1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania USA
    Thanks for the detailed response. I'm not a dogmatic guy as I said in an earlier post, I'm open to opinions from others. I chose the screen name because I thought it was cool sounding, not because I'm the pied piper trying to lead others down the garden path. I do have a lot of Japanese discs that sound very nice, but they are not always the ones I would choose as my preferred versions. And as to having an ulterior motive, I've never sold a Japanese CD on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. So I'm not an advocate of anything audio related for personal gain. Lastly, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong about something. No super egos here.

    So please don't view me as some type of advisary that needs to be torn down. I'm not out to slap anybody in the face, whether it's SH or anybody else.
     
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  11. TheJosh

    TheJosh Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    I picked up the 2016 Paranoid DE today and while reading the booklet, the credits mention 'Original 2009 Reissue Credits' and was wondering about this since these use the 2012 mastering. Aside from Pearce doing both, what is the main difference between the 2009 and 2012 masterings?
     
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  12. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    It sounds like they are one and the same.
     
  13. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    The 2016 isn't the same as the 2009. The 2016 uses the 2012 mastering, which has been available in hi-res from HDtracks for a while. The bonus disc seems to be the 2009 mastering, but made louder.

    Although credited that way, the 2009 isn't Pearce's mastering. It's basically the 1996 Ray Staff mastering (only very minor difference - same NR on Caravan, same waveform, etc). Don't know what happened there, but it wasn't a new mastering by Pearce. I find the 2016 to be much better anyway. Except for the bonus disc. The 2009 is better.
     
  14. TheJosh

    TheJosh Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    I'm listening to the 2016 Paranoid right now and so far I like it. Nice dynamic sound and the separation between instruments is good. Doesn't sound like a lot of limiting or compression was used either, which is okay with me; as long as something's not compressed to death like Brick Magnetic or Brickwall Angels, I'm fine with it.

    Planet Caravan just came on and it's a song I wish no compression had been used on at all. Comes on a little too loud for my liking, but not a huge gripe. Overall, I'm quite surprised with the quality here. Will probably pick up MoR DE and give that one a try next. Are they releasing any more of the catalog in DE format and if so, when might those arrive in stores?
     
  15. filex

    filex New Member

    Hello, I have a question. I own Sabbath Bloody Sabbath released in 1991 by Castle (CLC 5039, Castle Legends). I was reading forum, but I haven't found confirmed information about this CD. I'd like to know how it sounds compared to 1986 Castle reissues. If anyone would like to help, I would be grateful.

    Dropbox - sbs1.flac »
    Dropbox - sbs2.flac »
     
  16. yesstiles

    yesstiles Senior Member

    It's a different mastering to the 1986 Castle.
     
  17. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    For SBS get the '86 Castle with the numbers NELCD 6017 or CLACD 201. Both are the same mastering. One has a live bonus track and one does not. :)
     
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  18. BaptizedinFire

    BaptizedinFire Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    Been looking for some discussion about The Eternal Idol in this thread, but there doesn't seem to be any. Does anyone have an opinion about which CD version is the best? I just got rid of the 1996 (2004) Castle remaster to replace it with something else. The original Warner has slightly better DR scores than the Deluxe edition, but is there some other factor involved that makes the Deluxe edition sound better in your opinion? Going solely by the DR database doesn't seem like a viable method for choosing among editions when it comes to Sabbath, judging by this thread.

    I would also appreciate the same kind of answers for Seventh Star, which doesn't seem to be hotly debated. Is the deluxe edition the way to go? Thanks! :)
     
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  19. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I have the old German Vertigo CDs of both of these. They sound very good to me. Unlike other Vertigo reissues of the older albums, they don't have remastering credits so maybe they were just issued from the sources right to CD?
     
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  20. Masza

    Masza Forum Resident

    Location:
    Finland
    Do Rules of Hell and Dio Years comp share mastering of Dehumanizer tracks?

    I never liked EMI EU CD or DE mastering, just too much upper-mid and top-end which buries soundstage, causes hi-hat to sound too shrill, and gives Dio a bit whining voice. Dio Years comp mastering is much better in terms of EQ allthough maybe a bit compressed and of course maximized. Man, what a soundstage for a heavy/rock album. :ed: Vinny's drum sound is huge this time around and really fits the album. I liked this album straight away when I first time heard it, so angry and powerful.
     
  21. Masza

    Masza Forum Resident

    Location:
    Finland
    Btw, I think the kind of AM/FM radio hiss/interference noise fits the Master of Insanity single version perfectly. :thumbsup: Nice version otherwise too.
     
  22. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I don't know the answer to your question, but I bought the Rhino reissue LP of Dehumanizer maybe five years ago.

    When I compared it to the original CD I had, I couldn't believe the difference. The CD was shrill and the vinyl was miles better. I assume that album was recorded digitally but whoever mastered it for that Rhino LP knew how to get its potential out.

    I haven't heard the earlier vinyl pressings, but they might be as good. After hearing that Rhino LP, I doubt I would even bother ever getting this album on CD again.
     
  23. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Are you speaking of the made in France or made in Japan prior NELCD 6017 CD? They are not the same mastering and sound nothing alike.
     
  24. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I don't know about country of origin, but as far as I know those two CDs are the same except for the live track.

    From Roland:

    "You should get:

    Castle Communication, CLACD 201, 1986

    or

    Castle Communication, NELCD 6017, 1986

    The second one has a bonus live track from Live at Last. It is otherwise the same basic mastering, which is great."

    Black Sabbath Sabbath Bloody Sabbath »
     
  25. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH

    NELCD 6017, whether pressed in Japan or by MPO in France is the same mastering and they sound exactly alike.

    CLACD 201 is also a clone of this, but just omits the bonus track from LaL.
     

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