integrated vs separates...your thoughts?

I not waving anything, but I am pointing out a common misconception.

Let me correct you on another matter. Saying a stereo receiver and especially an AVR are like an integrated minus the tuner is a misrepresentation, especially when you get past consumer grade gear.

 

It looks pretty timeless especially for an amp from the 80s, nice piece of gear! If I ever come across one in the wild (doubtful) I'll be sure to pick it up.

 

Consumer grade? As opposed to what? You running industrial grade equipment? And I'm guessing that's based on my Yamaha? What non-consumer grade equipment are you running?

And yes... a stereo receiver is an integrated with a tuner built in. What's the difference otherwise?

 

They occasionally show up on E Bay in the $375 to $500 price range roughly.

 

If you don't know the difference between consumer grade and the better grades of audio gear there's no merit to your comments on this matter.

Cheers

 

For clarity Matt, and perhaps as a useful pointer, "Consumer grade" is a disparaging term on some audio fora whereby you can question the capability of some gear that's been, shall we say, "mass produced". This utilisation of economies of scale by the major manufacturers allows a small quota of audiophiles to cast opinions disregarding the capabilities of such gear to the "true" audiophile.

With that in mind, and with reference to the AVR and stereo receiver and integrated amp focus of this discussion, all I will say is that had the £1000-1500 integrateds been any better performers than the Onkyo TX-NR818 I ended up buying, then I'd have bought one. As it was, they weren't and aside from audio quality, they also fell short in terms of functionality.

Consequently, I came round to the opinion which I hold yet, that terms of the kind bandied around above, by the types indicated above, are bollocks.

 

I know the definition of "consumer grade", I was busting your chops because it doesn't make sense; technically speaking it's all "consumer grade". And as far as equipment goes (and not to sound like a condescending douche), I can assure you that I've not only heard more than most people with regards to AVRs, receivers, amps/preamps, and integrateds, I've also owned plenty very well regarded equipment. Like I said earlier here, I have 3 systems in my house; 2 are 2 channel music systems and one is a home theater system. And you can choose to write off Yamaha simply because Best Buy sells it, but they make great equipment.

One of my 2 channel music systems consists of a Spectral preamp and Carver amp that I had upgraded and rebuilt by Rolland Barr (as I said here earlier)... I would hardly put that in your "consumer grade" category. And my source on that system is either a Marantz SACD player, or most of the time it's a Music Hall MMF-5.3se turntable; which I realize that at $1300 isn't anywhere near the best of the best when you can spend well north of $20k on a turntable, but if you listen with your ears rather than your eyes you'd know it's a damn good table.

My other 2 channel music system is an active/passive design- while these are definitely large, they appear as a fairly customary 3 way. But the 15" subs are active, and the 12" mid to the horn tweeter are passive crossed. And I power the subs with a Carver amp, and the mid/tweet with an Adcom amp. The active crossover is done via a DBX Driverack, and the preamp is a B&K Reference 50. The majority of the listening on this system is done via a music server or a CDP. My goal with this system (which is in my shop) was insanely loud, but still very musical sounding, and I've attained that in spades. So again... I'd hardly put that in your "consumer grade" category.

Now as for my HT system... you're correct, this could be placed in your "consumer grade" category. While it was one model down from Yamaha's flagship when I purchased it about 8 years ago, it is still a Yamaha. And the speakers on this system are JBL Northridge monitors, with a Klipsch powered sub. The source is either a cable box, or a Marantz UD7007 BRP.

So there you have it... I've played into your contest; I've showed you mine, now you show me yours.

Thanks. I knew he was basically trying to say my gear is crap so he could attempt to say I didn't know what I was talking about... so in turn I wanted to point out the flaw in calling it "consumer grade"; I was being bumptious. And to be even more bumptious, nothing F1 stated makes sense with regards to challenging anything I originally stated . Regardless of the (so-called) headaches involved, you will have more performance options if you go the component route. I already gave the Vincent Audio example. Yes, some companies make excellent integrated amps (I never said they didn't); but by and large, you will have more options for performance upgrades by going with components. And unless you take that statement out of context just because you're either looking to troll or you want to be argumentative, I don't see how you can disagree with it.

And for the OP's original question (I apologize for the thread derailment BTW)... which is basically "should I get a Yamaha or Onkyo integrated, or should I use my Carver M-400 amp with my rebuilt Kenwood Basic C1 preamp"... I still stand behind my original answer- which is... I would go with the Carver/Kenwood option; and my reason for that answer is that he'll have more headroom.

 

Just stirring the pot on this but aside from the generalized differences: two units for separates vs one for an integrated, required interconnects, space, power - there can't be any specifics regarding what is 'better'.

There will always be the leap frog game of price vs performance.

You can list a pair of separates at a given price, and someone else will list an integrated for same or lower that may be better.

Then someone else will list another set of separates at a lower price w/ better performance, and a counter will be posted about someone finding a Goodwill 'scroe' on an integrated that will blow the separates away.

Gotta talk specific units at a given price for any meaningful comparisons.

 

I like how everyone pretty much agrees on all points and yet it still gets testy.

 

I was wary for a second that I started a war........

 

This is definitely true. Take the Vincent Audio example again...

Vincent Audio SV 237 Hybrid Integrated Amplifier
Fantastic piece of equipment BTW^. You have 150w/ch at 8 ohms, a fine DAC (unfortunately no phono stage), and it's all incorporated for $2400. But, if you don't consider the cost... you have more options going with Vincent Audio components. Like going with a pair of SP-T800 mono amps (200w/ch at 8 ohms and $3k each) and a SA-T7 preamp ($2500) will obviously yield more performance. But the component route will cost $8500, vs the all in package price of $2400 for the integrated. So, as I stated earlier, beauty is in the eye of the beholder; and generically speaking, you'll have more performance options with components than you will with integrateds.

 

Also on the topic of more options if I wanted to try something different than my Kenwood I could use my NAD 7020 as a fully fledged preamp. I like separates because you can really pair whatever you want and see what works synergy wise.

 

It definitely wasn't my intention to start a war, but it is the internet so... . I could make a simple statement like, "I enjoy my DIY speaker cables", and somehow that would turn into a war too. Either way, to get even more technical with my saying to go the Kenwood/Carver route...

I play my music loud quite a bit, so headroom means a lot to me. I also want sound quality, I want detail. And while I've never heard that Kenwood pre, I'm very familiar with Carver amps- I have 2 now and I used to also have a Carver M1.5t (in addition to other amps). While this statement of mine might get flamed as well... all of the Carver amps I've heard (I haven't heard them all) have been incredible sounding. The downside to some of them (although, you'll have this with any older amps) is that by the time they're 15+ years old, they're probably in need of servicing, which isn't necessarily a cheap venture.

I'm not sure what speakers you're driving, but you'll be able to drive a LOT more speakers to insane volumes with your Carver 400 amp before it clips than you would with any of the Onkyo or Yamaha integrateds that I'm aware of. And I agree with the preamp statement... it'll be cheaper once you have that amplifier rebuilt to upgrade the preamp, than it would be to replace an entire integrated amp you aren't happy with (not saying there's anything wrong with your Kenwood, but I'm not familiar with that one).

 

What the hell do you mean you enjoy your DIY speaker cables!?!!! .... I like to play my tunes at a good volume and sometimes it does get quite loud for a condo situation. The speakers I'm using were custom made by a small shop in NY so unfortunately there is no info online. That said they sound phenomenal to me and imo deserve better amplification. The rated 20 wpc from the NAD makes these sing but I know they can appreciate more juice. And the Kenwood is the little brother to the much loved Basic C2 preamp. This little recapped C1 sounds great and has one hell of a phono stage, it's even equipped for MC carts. If you ever see one floating around for cheap give it a shot!

 

Warm and MC don't fit in the same sentence.

 

I am.

 

I'll keep my eyes open for one. I always respected Kenwood's stuff, some of the vintage equipment I've heard sounded incredible.

And you'll get no argument from me as far as custom speakers go; maybe for an entirely new thread, but I love custom (or DIY) speakers. Bang for buck they're tough to beat. I've been building speakers for about 8 years now, Meniscus Audio actually sells one of my designs as a kit.

I designed and built all my speakers, except my HT speakers. My active/passive 3 ways are... JBL/Selenium D220 tweeter, Eminence Beta 12 midrange, and a Dayton Audio 15" sub. These are insanely loud, they'll play about 115 db in my shop. My 2 channel music speakers consist of a Transducer Labs tweeter, a Scanspeak Revelator 18w mid, and a SB Acoustics 10" woofer (very, very musical speakers).

Do you have any pics of your speakers? I'd love to see them. I'd post pics, but I was using Picasa for my photos and they went away, so I need to figure out how to transfer all my photos from the old Picasa to a new photo site.

Yes, this is why I avoided vinyl for so long; I love to tinker and I knew it would be an expensive hobby. When I say "move to a warmer MC", I meant try something like the Hana EL, which is supposed to be a warmer sounding MC cart. But, I think that would also mean a step-up transformer, because while my Spectral pre does have a phenomenal phono stage, I'm not sure that it has enough gain for that cart. Maybe it does, but I don't want to spend $550 on that cart, then find out I need to spend $500+ on a step-up, only for the "hope" that it would sound better than my Ortofon Bronze MM.

You're way above my pay-grade. I'd love to know how to build amps, but I'm a far cry from a EE. I considered attempting to rebuild my Carvers myself, but after researching all of it I threw them in a box and mailed them out . I'd love to hear yours, looks pretty intense

 

Not warmer you say? That may have just saved me some money. Overall, what do you like better about running an MC cart?

 

I think overall MC exhibits more detail from a recording, especially the higher up the freq scale one goes. This gives the impression of better clarity, but IMO not necessarily better tonality. I think MC is much more prone to listener fatigue for those with sensitivity at the higher extremes, of which I'm one. I also think that many MC's mask the midrange fullness or body that good quality MM/MI's excel at.

I'm in no way dissing MC as I certainly haven't heard them all to even come close to expressing such a generalization. I just haven't heard an MC that I truly love.

 

If you don't mind me asking... what's your favorite MM cart?

 

Listening fatigue would be an issue for me. I run my table for an average of 20 to 30 hours a week. I can go 8 hours in a day on a regular basis. Which also means I need a new cart (or stylus about every year). When we get into that $1 a record to run a cart range, it starts to feel excessive.

 

That's awesome! I applaud anybody who can craft a speaker by hand and apply their own designs. I'm sure some of your speakers sound drastically different than anything I've ever heard! I've found that Imgur works relatively good for posting pictures on here, you have to click a link but the pics stay up forever (at least I hope so...) I used my phone camera and tried to get the best lighting I could, albeit this camera doesn't do the finish of these speakers justice.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet »

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet »

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet »

Let me know what you think!

 

Unfortunately that would be one I can't afford. Grado Statement.

 

I wish I knew more about yours but I don't recognize the drivers they used (maybe a Morel tweeter?). I do know that gloss black is very hard to get right without the seams from the wood joints telegraphing through the paint, and from what I can see they did a very nice job!

I'm going to try to post a pic... not sure if it'll work though. These are what will eventually replace my JBL Northridge speakers in my HT system. So far I've only built the one pair, I'll build 3 more for center and rears eventually. These have Tang Band midwoofers with Vifa XT25 tweeters. I used reclaimed maple for the top, bottom and sides, and cherry for the front baffle. This was kind of a test build to see how solid hardwood cabinets would sound and function. They were designed to allow the wood to expand and contract, without tearing themselves apart. Been over a year now and I left them in my shop so they'd be in a harsh environment for wood so I could see how they'd react (hot/cold/damp/dry)... so far so good . If this works I'll post more...

Which Statement? I think they have a few or more versions right? Ranging from $350 and up to like $3k??

 

The top of the line one ...I think it's like $3,500. I really dislike the way Grado names their cartridges...can get confusing.