The LP12 - where is the love?

Interesting. In our market the Majik LP-12 was about $1500-2000 less than those alternatives. You're right though, they are excellent. I'd be happy with either. Here the Majik is a few hundred dollars more above the Rega RP-8, itself excellent. And while the process is perhaps more informal, your opportunities to do competitive turntable comparison's in this country are few and far between. I'm always impressed when I read about the dealer in Leicester, England who has multiple variations of Linn and other turntables on display for demo.

Cheers

 

I replaced my aging Valhalla with a Hercules. You get a sonic improvement and 45 RPM.

jeff

 

Out of the two serious dealers in Leicester the non Linn one (Leicester Hi-Fi) that had a few different choices closed when the lease ran out and the Linn one (Cymbiosis) has moved into a village. The later only ever did Linn and Rega. The other more recent is Classique Sounds which specialises in used and valve gear and once had links to Icon Audio. It isn't easy to find Linn with any other turntables at the same dealership here.

 

Yes they are originally a PMS. When I purchsed it came with a Naim active xover but I haven't been able to afford to go active. Speaker sat in storage for a while but when I found a pair of later vintage external Xover I have converted them to passive units. I wish I could go active but numbers of box count ( 6 additional boxes! ) gives me a pause.

 

Actually Cymbiosis carries DPS, too now.
Peter definitely has the best selection of Sondek variations.


My dealer in the US does not carry anything but Linn and Rega altho, he services old Thorens.

 

Thank you. I have never seen those before.

 

With a good turntable you will easily...or more easily...hear the differences between good and bad recordings. Of course all variables taken into consideration...both hardware and software. But sure, bad will sound bad with decent equipment...and a bit of listening experience.

 

Um...I think I just wet myself...

 

You might want to take a little side trip and go and listen to a LP12 Klimax with a Radikal D. Compare this to the Orbe and the Hyperspace and I think you will 'quickly' have your answer, LOL. Like many on the forums, you have an opinion of the LP12 Klimax, but I question if you have actually heard one??

 

Two things are certain. Firsty I would not be able to do direct comparisons at any dealer. While I am sure the Klimax is a substantial improvement over previous incarnations it's built on rocky ground. Further more I still believe Linn is overpriced in sound for pound. I'm pretty sure you have not compared to alternatives. The Klimax is so way more expensive to my suggestions it is a joke. Frankly you should be comparing it to Loricraft 601, SME 20/3, Spiralgroove , Grand Prix Monaco etc.

 

That should be the SME 30/2 not the 20/3 and Garrard/Loricraft 501.

 

The Klimax is built on rocky ground?????? What the...??
I have listened to the Orbe and the Hyperspace, both are not in the same league as the Klimax, IMHO. The Grand Prix Monaco is a very good TT...and would be my second choice if I didn't already own the Linn. The oil-rigger, also a good TT; but we're talking apples and oranges with the Linn. I prefer the Linn,although the oil rigger does allow a much greater flexibility of arm. ( a MAJOR plus IMO). Still asking IF you have actually heard the current Linn LP12 klimax!

 

Didn't I point this out already, or was it in another thread, the Klimax costs £17,000, an Orbe with SME V costs £6,000, in 1981, a Michell Gyrodec cost twice what a LP12 did, Scotland must have had hyper inflation for it's Hi Fi products, for an extra grand I'd take a 30/2 and no I haven't heard a Klimax either, but unless it sounds nothing like the dozens of LP12s I have heard then I would prefer the SME, or my Orbe come to that.

 

I'm pretty sure I have heard a current Linn and likely being a show dem it was a Climax but frankly couldn't judge in an all Linn or Naim system in which it was used. Thing is the underpinning is the original concept which was indeed rocky based on experience and needed a lot of changes to improve matters. My problem is how a TT based on a Thorens 150 with improved subchassis a DC motor and a few other tweaks justifies nearly £18K (incl arm phono stage I believe).

I am more familiar with Orbe and found it gives near 90% of most mega expensive decks I have heard. Now if that extra 10% puts a TT at 5 times the cost in a different league to you I won't argue, but it sure is a long way down in value for money. I find it hard to believe that Linn's expensive tweaks could bring the old fruit box into competition with £20k ground up designs.

I will soon be auditioning an Orbe and hope to do so against some moderately more expensive designs primarily the SME 15. I doubt I will be able to compare direct with a lesser Linn given the UK dealer situation, or audition one without Linn or Naim amps. I think even if Linn have dragged the Lp12 up to a competitive standard at a price, the ease of set up and adjustability of more modern designs is going to win for me. Also free from that Linn dealer set up requirement ******** and being limited to the use of an Ekos arm. I'm afraid with Linn, Industry politics and sales patter always cloud the issue.

 

Good discussion...

just wanted to highlight that the Klimax comes with a phono stage and a cartridge of course... and from what I can see you pretty easily get a hardly used ex demo Klimax for under 12k.
Still expensive of course but how much would an Orbe plus a good phono stage plus one of the, say, good Lyra cartridges come out at?

 

You can get a really good phono stage for £1,000, even if we are generous and allow £2,000 for a cart that still brings a full Orbe/SME V cart and phono stage in at £9,000, although I'd be surprised if you couldn't shave a £1,000 off that with some careful shopping or a friendly dealer, incidentally I wonder why there are so many ex demo Linns around, surely not because nobody wants them.

 

Dealers obviously can't sell them at full retail! Surprise Surprise. Look at the alternatives at £15K to £20K.

 

Couldn't agree more!

 

THAT is a beautiful sight!

 

Where are all these ex-demo Klimax LP12s you're talking about? I don't see any currently on audiogon or ebay and my local dealer hasn't had any demo LP12's for sale.

 

I think it was Audio T that had one in Brighton I believe, though that was last month, the OP knows of one at a London dealer, we discussed it on his other thread as far as I recall, they show up in the UK with surprising regularity considering what they are, it's obviously different in the States.

I have no idea if it's still the case, but Linn used to enforce all sorts of rules on dealers who wanted to stock them, hence their dealer network more than halving back in the 1990s, perhaps a current rule is that dealers have to have a Klimax on demo, that would definitely explain why they show up regularly on dealer's clearance lists.

 

While the LP12 certainly isn't a "budget" component, I think it is somewhat disingenuous to look solely at the Klimax (high) or Majik (low) level LP12 when talking about pricing. To me, the sweet spot of the LP12 lineup is the mid-level "Akurate" model. It has none of the obvious compromises of the Majik (the Pro-Ject arm, the single-speed controller, etc.) but does without some of the gilding on the Klimax (the ungoldy expensive "Keel" subchassis, for example).

I looked online, and, using British pounds sterling (because that is what has been quoted above), it appears that that the "Akurate" level LP12 retails for about £6,000, including the "Kore" subchassis, the current "Akito" tonearm, the newest "Lingo" two-speed power supply, and what is reputed to be the very nice sounding "Krystal" MC cartridge (I've not heard it, but early reviews are all good).

That is very close in price to a number of well-respected competitors. For example, the bottom of the line SME Model 10 turntable, appears to retail for about £5,200 with a 300-series arm, but without a cartridge. The Linn is only about £500 more than a Rega RP10 with the "Aphelion" cartridge. The Avid Volvere is £4,000, which once you add a decent tonearm (say, SME 300 for £1,500) and comparable cartridge (say, Lyra Delos for £1,000), costs more than the "Akurate" LP12. The longtime competitor Xerxes 20? That is £3,000 for the deck, £1,000 for the mid-level "Tabriz" tonearm, £460 for the "XPS 7" basic power supply, and £1,000 for a Lyra Delos; again, pretty much in the ballpark of the "Akurate" level Linn LP12. At £6,000 complete with cartridge, the LP12 also pretty neatly splits the difference between Clearaudio's Ovation (£4,000 without cartridge) and Innovation (£6,400, again, without cartridge).

I look at the LP12 as being somewhat akin to the Porsche 911. It has been around forever, and has somewhat anachronistic characteristics that have made it an icon. It is well-made and durable, resulting in a strong second hand market for it, with many OEM and third-party upgrades available. It is expensive, but not so expensive that relatively well-heeled professionals with disposable incomes cannot afford it. And it is available brand new in an amazingly diverse range of configurations and prices from the base "Majik" level for £2,700 all the way up to the £15,200 "Klimax" package. A base 911 Carrera ($89,000), taken objectively, is more expensive, and slower, than a Corvette Gran Sport ($65,000). But has a certain history, look, and overall feel that, subjectively, makes it worth the price for a great number of people. A 911 Turbo S ($190,000) more than doubles the price, but gives you performance that rivals any street car on the road, including the exotics, and demolishes most.

To me, the LP12 "Akurate" is like a base 911 Carrera; it is a great performer and is expensive, but comparable in price to its main rivals. The LP12 "Klimax" is like a 911 Turbo S; its bones are the same as the 911 Carrera, but it has performance as good as, if not better than, almost anything else on the market, but still acts like a normal car (unlike, say, some exotic designs). The LP12 "Majik" is sort of like the Cayman; its objective performance is not as good as the 911, but it is still a ton of fun, and a nice entry to Porsche's sports care lineup.

 

Absolutely fantastic. I've always wanted to see a picture of his store. I so wish America had something like that.

 

It would appear that once again there are many 'suppositions' and opinions on the Klimax level LP12, but no one is too sure they have actually heard the deck and certainly not in a familiar system!!! Guys, please do go out and make the 'effort' to actually hear this deck, Preferably with a professional set up and with ancillary gear that a table like this could be expected to be used with.
Then...and IMHO ONLY THEN, can the naysayers be taken seriously.

 

Whilst Klimaxed LP12 is pretty darn good and can compete with today's best but I personally preferred the *flavour* of Naim ARO/Armageddon Sondek.

I also found Keel subchassis or Radikal power supply weren't to my liking with an ARO. I have read and heard on the internet so much about how great these Linn's latest upgrades were so I was pretty much sold on the upgrades. But after all day demo at the dealer I realiased it wasn't working for me. ( Keel demo was A-B but Radikal demo was A-B-A )

So no costly Linn upgrades ( I've bought a new mechanical before the last price increase and a used Naim PSU was plentiful due to many upgraded to the Radikal PSU) nor I intend to upgrade anything ( my poor dealer ) except perhaps the cartridge in the future. Changing a belt and mat plus occasional adjustment would keep me happy for a long time.

If I did not have or heard a Naim arm, then I would probably pony up for their EKOS SE ( much better than the original EKOS ) + Keel. I have heard other tables over the years but, warts and all, I do think that Linn is very musical and most *fun* in any iterations.

The cost of all things analogue ( don't get me started on the cost of cartridge! ) seems to have gone up quite a bit as I remember my first used Sondek (Basik/Basik Plus/AT95 ) was 850$USD and I saw a similar spec LP12 going now for double that.