The LP12 - where is the love?

Well yes, likely true. I see this from a consumer perspective though and dont have an issue with it. If the 'table doesnt sell at full retail and thus gets discounted to a more competitive price level, that is fine with me!

Yep it would be great if anyone would be able to do a solid comparison between the Klimax Lp12 and something like the Orbe with a great cart or an SME. Difficult to do though... at least in the UK it seems real tough to find a dealer who can do this. (likely due to the dealer restrictions that dubmart was referring to)

 

Although I have certain prejudices, I do try and have an open mind and although it's not to my taste I do appreciate what Linns do and have spent many hours listening to them, I have no objections to spending time with a Klimax, I'd be very interested in hearing what it can do and how it differs from other LP12s, but surely it is still a Linn and will have that signature Linn sound? If it does sound like a Linn then I will still walk away preferring my Orbe, a Roksan or SME, I will keep an eye out and see if my local Linn dealer gets a Klimax in on demo, I'm always willing to be proved wrong and indeed can't properly comment without having heard one.

 

BTW Who does Linn in Bristol now that Radfords have gone?

 

Radfords stopped carrying Linn back when Linn cleared out their dealer network, I assume Audio T still carry them, but haven't been in there for years, I switched my loyalties to Radfords in the late 1990s and since they closed have probably saved a fortune, Alan the longtime engineer from Radfords is still around so if I picked a Linn up I'd take it to him.

 

While we're at it Audio T still have their "cheap" Klimax, sign up for their newsletter and get an additional 5%, (£650), off.

http://www.audiot.co.uk/products/linn-klimax-lp12-turntable-10035.aspx

 

Is that the former Audio Excellence on Park Street?

 

Yes, Absolute Sound And Video and further up on Queens Road when I first started visiting them, over the years they've been Audio T, Audio Excellence and now Audio T again, I spent many, many happy hours in the Park Street store back in the 1980s, many times they'd say they'd set up deck x with arm y and cart z in the demo room and would I like to have a listen, I got to hear a ton of gear back then, the good old days.

 

Genuine question.In your opinion could you tell me what you think Linn's signature sound is?

 

Well, sorry to avoid the question, I'll just say that Linns sound like Linns, I sat through enough Linn presentations, (cult meetings), in the 1980s, I should really have taken notes, but they do have a brand sound and were definitely marketed as such, whereas other decks, Pink Triangles and Roksans in the eighties, Orbes and SMEs in the nineties never ever sounded like Linns, even with identical arms and carts, in fact my Ariston fitted with a Linn cart didn't sound like a Linn either. Beyond that I'm not getting into a subjective discussion of the "Linn sound", it's not for me, but others seem to love it and I don't need more contention, there's enough on the GAE thread and I generally like Linn owners.

I'd just add that I believe that newer Linns and current upgrades get away from the "Linn sound", my experience of current spec Linns is minimal so I cannot comment, perhaps Linn owners can confirm or deny that.

 

£12,995.00???? Linn must be p*ssing themselves laughing.

 

That's ex demo, the list price is £17,000.

 

• Keel gives more natural flow to otherwise a *sledge hammer* like EKOS.
• Radikal reduces the noise floor dramatically resulting much better low level details and note decays. ( proverbial blacker background )
• Kandid has a much lower distortion than a previous Akiva plus warmer and natural tonal balance yet still maintaining excellent transient speed. ( A lot more flat-earthed than Lyra/Scantech who makes both cartridges but they sound completely different )

I have not heard a 70s spec Linn ( pre Linn arm days ) but having listened from a non-Cirkus deck to Cirkus ( plus Naim ver.) and the current Linn iteration, it came a long way but I do not believe it necessarily *get away* from the Linn sound.

I also struggle to come up with the description of their house sound but it seems to me, Sondek is more fun to listen to than others. ( and that's my litmus test )

I have not heard a fun direct drive yet. The last non suspended *fun* table I have heard was idler deck Saskia at 36K and I don't believe this table came with an arm or cartridge.

 

I think that if you believe that the LP12 Klimax has a 'house sound' then you may not have heard a properly set up deck. The older LP12, which I upgraded from..was certainly less resolving in the bass, slightly more restricted in its sound staging ability and a lot less 'master tape' like than my current table. IMO, the ability of the deck to sound as close as possible to the master tape is a valid goal. The upgrade of the sub chassis and the bearing went a long way towards that....so now lets talk about the other components of the Klimax. Those components are the Kandid cartridge, the Ekos Se arm and the Urika phono stage. Here's my thoughts on those......

They are a severe let down to the rest of the deck!!!

The Urika is at best a mid-fi phono stage, the Ekos Se is severely limited by its lack of adjustability and by its inferior arm cabling- and the Kandid can be bettered by other Lyra cartridges. ( The Atlas and the Etna) and by other top-line carts. ( The new Air Tight Opus and the little heard MY Sonic Platinum Sig, come to mind here).
But, the deck with the Radikal D, the Cirkus/Keel ( maybe even Kore) and the Tramp 2 base are still in the top echelon, IMHO.

 

You feel the Kandid is warmer and more natural than the Akiva? That's good to hear. I haven't heard the Kandid but the reports I've read made it sound rather analytical and incisive. Which kept me away (not to mention the price!).

 

I love my LP12. It's how a turntable should sound, and look!

 

I went through 4 Akivas and each one slightly varied in a tone but even the last batch, Kandid sounded much more natural and smooth. Analytical and incisive? Sure you'd gain a lot in details but that's not what I heard on mine. ( albeit on the ARO )
What I have been most impressed about lately, tho is their new Klyde replacement Krystal. It's a winner at the price point. Knocking off both Lyra Delos and Dyna XX2/2 in my book.

 

I've had 2 Akivas. Heard great things about the Krystal. A friend offered me his Kandid with 300 hours on it for $2500 and I was tempted but still too much dough for me.

 

It's not the improvements they make to the traditional fruit box sound but the asking price that is the problem. Thousands for fairly low tech engineering improvements and tweaks using existing technology especially as the basic design costs have been recovered over and over thousands of times.

 

Whilst their pricing of Keel might be a bit OTT for a *hunk of metal* if it worked for me, then I was willing to pay for it. There are several alternatives for it so you don't necessarily have to buy in to their product. Whether they are upgrade or not is up to a listener, of course.

I would like Linn to be profitable so that they can support my turntable for a long run. Nothing more frustrating than having to find an obsolete parts or get it fixed to maintain an orphaned product. It might be fun for a hobbyist, but I just wanna spin records and keep the maintenance low.

You are right that the basic technology for Sondek has been paid out a long time ago, but developmental costs for the new products still need to be figured in, no?

Recently Linn raised the price of the belt to 90$. I guess they ran out of the large batch they made a long time ago. Having they have not raised the price for an over a decade, I understand and new pricing is comparable to other belt. ( Avid belt, for instance is 85$, Phonosophie No.3 belt for 90$ etc... ) And if you are a Radikal owner, a wear and tear of the belt is minimum.

What I have problem now is the cartridge cost! The same cartridge, say, I remember paying 500 bucks for a Dynavector 20X now it's a grand!
Or Lyra's recent eye watering price increase. :/

 

WHAT????

 

Those prices for belts are mind boggling! Check against belt prices for Michell, Project and Rega! Apart from the Keel tooling the basic technology elsewhere would have required little development. Compare the price of Linn DC motor with Michell.

 

Don't value items against raw material cost. Like it or not Linn through away skip loads of Keel prototypes till they were satisfied with the product. The sales run is not large (very specialised market). So the development cost when amortized are quite high per unit. I could not find the money for a Keel and having talked to my Linn Dealer he said that he felt the Kore offered about 80% of the benefit of the Keel and that is what I went for. Remember the LP12 at Klimax level may be a high cost, although it seems insignificant against a Clearaudio Statement at £92,000 (without arm!!!).

It is impossible to evaluate (in strict terms) HI FI. For example I have just had an Audio Technica MC Cartridge fitted to my LP12. This is my first MC. I find it great. I could (if I had the money) have paid £3500 for a MC cartridge. Would it be 15 times better than my AT? Would it be worth 15 times more than my AT? I don't know. To some yes, to others no. It's a personal choice. Is a Ferrari "better" than a Honda Jazz? Not for me the Ferrari doesn't do 50mpg!!!!! But I would love one

I would like to say though that finding a dealer who can expertly set up an LP12 makes a load of difference. Peter Swain at Cymbiosis looks after mine and the difference of having him set it up is very special.

 

All I can say is some people are seduced by more expensive, must be better. Clearaudio statement is about style and show as well as sound and in material terms there is 10 times at least of any Linn. You have to compare what you get in the same price bracket which is ground up heavily constructed high mass design rather than add- ons to an ancient shell design.

 

I must agree with classicrock on this one

 

There is only one thing that matter "Does it sound better" Yes that has to be within your price range. Why would anyone buy something just because it was cheaper, but worse.

Is a Saville Row suit worth the price...only the buyer can decide. Personally I wouldn't spend that amount but labour costs are very high. Mass production reduces the cost considerably, as Mr Ford found out.

We all have to decide the true "value" of products to ourselves. I love my LP12 and what it supplies me. If others think it is expensive that's for them. To me it is remarkable good value for the pleasure it gives me. I would happily spend another £10,000 to bring it to top spec. but I don't have that disposable income. What I have is very much value for money in my view.

Why for example is a Nikon 3300 SSLR £279 and a Canon EOS-1D X Mark 2 (Body only) £5199? It wouldn't take any better pictures for me (I only take snaps) though for the enthusiast I am sure they would value the Canon (or the like) over the Nikon (or the like) because that is important to them.

Some people would be happy with a Dansette. I chose to use something else.