M*A*S*H: I Think The Show Got Better As It Went On.

I never said that anyone wanted to actually set anything in Vietnam, but perhaps I wasn't quite clear in my choice of words. The book, the movie, the TV show were essentially done to comment on Vietnam (and war in general) while setting the show in the more acceptable past.

This was akin to Rod Serling or Gene Roddenberry doing shows to comment on the current conditions while setting them in other times, other planets, other dimensions.

 

People accept it but it's the inherent nature of humans to dissect and critique things presented to them. Such is our nature.

 

I love to point out errors as well as the next guy, but it doesn't cause me to dismiss a work out of hand just because of an anachronism or factual error. Of course I noticed Alda's hair getting gray and Burghoff's balding spot. And the number of Christmas episodes, or that New-Years episode that portrayed a whole year where other characters should have been. None of that destroyed the whole premise for me. I just suspend disbelief and enjoy it.

 

I never dismissed the work of MASH due to its errors or incongruity. At the time, I enjoyed it immensely; only as an older person have I reflected and been critical of it. In truth, as a young kid and teenager, it was one of my favorite shows.

That said, I'd bet as a fan of the show, I'm one of a very few that has NEVER seen the hugely watched last episode. I missed it for whatever reason in real time and have never been motivated (for whatever reason) to see it.

 

This is kind of a straw man argument, because no one here is saying those things "destroyed the whole premise" of the series, nor is anyone dismissing the series out of hand. We're just having a discussion. Part of the process of enjoying a creative work is analyzing it, and analysis typically includes consideration of what parts of it work and which parts don't. A person can offer criticisms about a work while still enjoying it as a whole.

 

Well I said "not quite correct" because you said "the only reason", which I agree was wording that I don't think was quite clear. My disagreement is that the book was not written as a disguised commentary on Vietnam. Hornberger started writing his memoirs and turning it into a book in the late 50s/early 60s, well before Vietnam. But it easily could be used by filmmakers or tv series producers as a cover for commenting on current war issues.

 

The movie and the TV show went in that direction, but the book was not at all intended to comment on Vietnam, nor upon war in general. It was simply Hornberger offering anecdotes about his experiences in Korea. In later years he made it clear that he was not even "anti-war" per se, and "I intended no messages in the book."

 

that's hilarious

 

It puzzles me when people object to actual discussion about things occurring on a discussion forum...

 

It is really apparent in the "Goodbye Radar" episode that Gary Burghoff was sick and tired of playing that character- you even get that vibe from the little 'cameo' appearances he made in the previous couple of episodes that take place while he's still on R & R at the start of Season 8. Even in his Season 7 episodes he still seems like the usual manchild Radar, not this cranky and bitter guy who indeed is kind of tough to watch.

Oh, I'd say that trend started long before the finale- the show had those "pure drama" moments early on. But by Season 8 or so that's when the writers consciously started writing full-on "serious" episodes. The worst part IMO was that along with the seriousness came heavy doses of over-sentimentality, most often displayed in the "kid" episodes (such as "Yessir That's My Baby" or "Old Soldiers", both from Season 8, natch) or the ones where relatives come to visit ("Father's Day", "Strange Bedfellows"). In the later seasons the episodes where they were trying for full on comedy come across as very forced and a lame attempt at trying to recapture past comedic glories. Though it's one of my favourite later episodes, "The Joker Is Wild" from the final season is a prime example of that IMO. Plotwise, "The Joker Is Wild" has Season 1 or 2 written all over it, but by Season 11 that ship had sorta sailed already. As an aside, as an episode it's also a good example of illustrating just how much of jerk B.J. could be at times (letting his apparent jealousy of the long-departed Trapper get the better of him) and blatantly trying to antagonize Hawkeye. His similar antics in "No Laughing Matter" from Season 9 - betting Hawkeye that Hawk couldn't go 24 hours without making a joke and then spending the rest of the episode taunting and goading him- also don't show Hunnicut's better side.

Absolutely- Hawkeye's breakdown in the final episode somehow seemed like it was long time coming and, frankly, the only real suitable -I daresay realistic- denouement for that particular character. Alan Alda must have loved knowing all the sympathy Hawkeye's crack-up would have garnered amongst the viewers back in '83

 

I was glad to see the back of Radar when he went. His cuteness had grown out of all proportion and from what I've seen of Water, that's pretty much the whole schtick. It's there in the early shows, of course but less prevalent. Aside from the truly barrel-scraping That Darn Kid by Karin Hall, nearly all the really bad episodes are written by Elias Davis and David Pollock, with those by Thad Mumford and Dan Wilcox coming in a close second. Bearing in mind their involvement, I'm surprised the finale turned out as decent as it did.

 

IMO the best writers the show had were Larry Gelbart and Laurence Marks (who left after Season 4) and Jim Frtizell and Everett Greenbaum (who left after Season 6). Mumford and Wilcox came on board for Season 8 and Pollock and Davis the following year. Mumford and Wilcox, as I recall, are responsible for the sickly-sentimental "kid" episodes I mentioned earlier...

 

Yes, yes, yes.

 

I think Burghoff should have not come back in season 8 at all. His attitude was one of a person who did not want to be there. Start season 8 announcing that Radar had gone home. No final episode for him, just move on. The season 7 episode where the characters families got together back home in the States always felt like it would have been a good last episode for Radar.

 

That most likely is true. According to Ken Levine, the "Goodbye Radar" episode was originally written to be the finale of season 7. Then at the last minute, Burghoff made a deal to come back for a few episodes in season 8 so they could use Radar's departure during November sweeps. It's not hard to figure that money was the only reason he came back, and if a person is burned out and doing something only for the money the result is not likely to be good.

 

An Army Lifer might have become anti-war but still wanted their military retirement. Retired Iraqi war veteran here.

 

Yes, but that is a very rare bird, particularly in the context of the 1950s U.S. army.

 

Hardly. A career officer like Houlihan would be very conscious of what they would be giving up, particularly a single female in the Madmen world of the 1950s.
Being a retired female 0-4 or 0-5 in the 50s would be a very good living and would offer much security. You have to remember being a nurse in those times was probably not as respected as it is today. But I was not around then maybe an older person can chime in. In other words Houlihan would know that being retired might save her years of hard work as ward nurse as she got older, and she would not even come close to having the automatic respect and status of a being an officer while working as a civilian health care giver.

In general why do think people stay in the military for 20 years? It is for the retirement and the excellent health care benefits for retired veterans. After you have done 10 years or so it is very hard to get out of the military because one knows what the will be giving up after so much time and deployments.

 

In the 50s civilians would probably not respect an Army nurse like they would say an infantry captain.

But an Army nurse Major would have the immediate respect of the nurses she commanded. That status is unique in a way and hard to give up.
You military vets understand what I mean.

 

I'm not talking about the pull to stay in the service for the retirement, I'm talking about her anti war conversion as not credible. It may be your experience in the army was far different than mine so we may just have to agree to disagree here.

 

I think a fictional Houlihan might have thought "Hey maybe Hawkeye is right about the war" and at the same time count the years until she could retire.
In other words you could be regular Army and inside be anti-war. Now a fictional Ensign Hotlips turned anti-war might have gotten out as soon as possible.

I'm a Navy guy who worked with doctors and nurses for 20 years. Just because you are anti-war does not make one necessarily anti-military. One should not equate the two as the same thing. Hawkeye was anti-military AND anti-war. Houlihan may have become anti-war but she could also just keep her opinions to herself and do her job as a nurse. Remember she is helping wounded Americans in an awful war and like most nurses probably felt that was more important than anything else besides not dying in the war herself.


The early years of MASH are great but completely implausible. The latter years are not as funny but probably a bit closer to portraying real human beings in a war. In no time in my years in the Navy did real military medicine approach the levity of MASH or the buddy-buddy relationships between officers and enlisted people. And we talking about medical personnel like doctors, nurses and corpsman. My speculations about Hotlips probably does not apply to infantry officers leading soldiers into battle.

 

Wasn't MASH the show that decided to jettison the laugh track at some point (I'm vague on this because I wasn't a fan of the show. I adore the movie but didn't fall in love with the santized version)? I remember it being a bold move at the time. And I also remember watching it without the laugh track and thinking: "Now this show is REALLY not funny. " I think there's a good reason for laugh tracks in many cases -- the shows are just aren't that funny. Isn't there a scene in Annie Hall where woody Allen chides his friend Max for adding a laugh track to his sitcom and Woody says, "But it isn't funny..." I remember MASH suddenly existing in that airless void that bad comedies exist in when they turned off the laugh track.

 

From another Woody Allen movie, with Alan Alda, on the nature of comedy:

 

They had one episode set entirely in the OR with no laugh track, but the DVDs have the option to turn it off and I think the syndicated shows in some countries ditched the laugh track.