Do I need a DAC?

My Oppo 105D has been the main player in my system for a while now. I absolutely love the functionality and seamless integration of the unit, but I've started to question whether I'm getting optimal sound quality from it. I also have an Antipodes DS music server that I play from, and to my ears it sounds better when playing the same digital files and virtually on the same signal path. I would say the Oppo often has a touch more "brittleness", whereas the Antipodes pretty much always sounds effortless. I assuming this may be due to the Sabre DAC in the Oppo (not sure if the Antipodes has an internal DAC).

A while back, I added a Decware CSP2+ preamp on the analog outs of the Oppo to counter this effect, but it sometimes softens the presentation a bit too much for my taste. And it's not the speakers or their internal amplification (Dynaudio XD's). They sound great played from other sources and it's not an option or interest for me to change to something else.

So should I add a DAC to my system? What are the implications of having multiple DACS in the signal path (assuming the Oppo DAC is not defeatable)? Or should I try a different pre or different tubes in my Decware? I know the easy answer is just listen to music via the Antipodes, but I prefer the flexibility of the Oppo. My listening is purely digital, mainly SACD/BD and lossless wav & hi-res from my NAS.

 

I looked up the Antipodes quickly, and it doesn't seem to have a DAC - seems to be digital output only. Do you have it plugged into the Oppo? Or is the digital converted to analog by your wireless speakers?

I think that if you gave a more detailed description of the signal flow in your system, you might get better answers. It looks like you have one DAC in your Oppo already and another in your speakers. Maybe you should send the digital output of the Oppo to the speakers without another conversion.

Some people think that sound is better when file streaming than playing discs, even when using the same DAC. I found it comparable when I had a very good disc transport, and now that I have a less good one, I think file streaming sounds better.

HTH

 

It's going to cost you a lot of money to beat the Sabre in the oppo with a separate DAC that is for sure.

The other thing you could do is send your OPPO to Australia and get a custom analogue mod to the DAC - Joe Rasmussen Pages »

Btw - if you havent modded your oppo with Modwright gear, you will get MUCH better bang for buck that way! Best sound ive heard and it is totally worth the money. This is mine. This thing is legit!

 

Bad Samaritan

Have you heard your Oppo connected DIRECTLY to you Dyn's at analog level?
This is the best way to utilise the on board ESS DAC.

If you are connected up at coax level to your Dyn's..........you are hearing the DAC in them!!

If you plan on having a listen to the OPPO at analog level.........ensure that volume control is set to "VARIABLE" and "0" BEFORE any listening!!!

Then you can just increase volume as required................if it's too loud before you get past half volume you may have a mismatch though.

Lastly........Have you checked that all settings on the Oppo are correct?...........HDMI audio OFF.........DRC OFF.......192Khz Bitstream set for Coax out......etc......

BTW.........should you STILL wish to explore external DAC's......my Benchmark DAC2 comfortably beats my OPPO 105's DAC.
It also offers on board attenuator pads ( up to -20db) and I bought mine used for just US$1,400.

Been there and done that with modding........The main issue I have is that it is not cost effective and limits your future options to upgrade as the market for a used modded deck is tiny and they won't pay anywhere near what you did!!!

Sure they can sound good but so can external DAC's........which can be more easily and more cheaply upgraded when something better comes along............which WILL happen.

A few years ago I thought my JLTI fully modded $3.5K OPPO 83 was the business.......till the OPPO 105 came out!!!

Sounded at least as good out of the box but also offered a HOST of extra handy features!!!
And........of course...........I took a bath on the 83 at sale time........

Very happy now though as I have combined the functionality of a great UDP plus the better SQ (and required feature set) of a dedicated external DAC....... (Benchmark use the ESS too!!!.......of course it's configured differently though)

If starting again from scratch though......... and knowing what I know now........... I would have bought a 103 instead however the 105's superior DAC did serve me VERY well for the last couple of years whilst researching and saving prior to acquiring the Benchmark..........

Anyway..........GOOD LUCK

 

Are you sure that the speakers don't do an ADC on incoming analog signals? It's possible that, being speakers with digital inputs, they do the crossovers in the digital realm. Not that I know for sure -- what I read on their website left me wondering -- but it would be interesting to know that before using the analog output of the Oppo (or anything else). [Not sure if the OP is even reading any of this, but it's an interesting enough discussion.]

 

I'm still watching this. I'll get to some of the questions asked.

I have a wireless hub (Dynaudio Connect) that transmits all signals to the speakers at 24/92. The Oppo is connected to it via coax and analog outs, and then the Decware pre is also in the analog path to the hub. The Antipodes is connected to the hub via USB.

In the past, I have had the Oppo direct to the Dyn's via both analog and coax. The only difference now is they are both running thru the same wireless hub but I can select either input for A-B comparison. I have not tried the Antipodes straight to the Dyn's.

I will check these tonight, thanks

So adding another DAC in the signal has no detrimental effect? There is a Benchmark DAC2 on Audiogon right now for $1200, and a few DAC1's for $500-600.

 

^^just clarifying that my wireless hub transmits at up to 24/92, it's not upsampling that I'm aware of.

 

So the Oppo sounds brittle through both its analog and digital outputs? If so, it's not the Oppo's DAC that is the problem.

I think it would be a bad move to feed the Oppo's digital output through a DAC to get analog, then feed that to the Connect which will redigitize it, then send it to the speakers which have their own DAC to get analog once again. If that improves the sound over just feeding the Oppo's digital output into the Connect, there is something screwy going on that is beyond what we can guess through a forum.

 

Provided you are keeping the signal path as simple as possible.
You are not adding a DAC so much as replacing/bypassing one.

Digital level from source to DAC and then analog level to speakers (or Pre)

BEFORE looking at external DAC's ensure that you have optimised your OPPO as it should be sounding pretty decent!!!.....

BTW......the Benchmark DAC2 is apparently a big improvement on the DAC1.

Remember though that there are HEAPS of DAC's at various price points you could try hearing before any purchase.
No rush......LOL...........do some research..........ask some questions.........do some listening and A-B ing.........
You will then be in a much better position to make the best decision.

FWIW.........I chose the Benchmark DAC2 for a number of practical reasons that also suited me ...........as well as SQ.

 

RE
"Do I need a DAC?"
Somewhere in your system, yes, you do.

 

Linger, I checked my setting and did find that DRC was on. Turning it off made a perceptible improvement.

I'm a bit confused by your other suggestions. I already had the coax output set to 192k lpcm. I can switch to bitstream and there is a slight change in sound. Admittedly I don't know what the difference is between them.

Also, you suggest setting the volume to "0"... Which volume setting?

And then in your last post... If I added a DAC, how would I bypass one? To my knowledge you can't bypass the Oppo DAC, And I certainly cannot bypass the DSP in my monitors (but I don't think that is a contributor to the differences I'm hearing between playback sources.)

Thanks for your help and suggestions so far.

 

I still suggest that, since the signal will be converted back to digital by the Connect, spending money on a DAC before the Connect is a waste. Yes, it might change the sound a little, but only because every component changes the sound a little. It might be a better investment of time and money to learn to use the DRC and other DSP features of the speakers better.

 

This is one reason why I'm so apprehensive about modern gear, especially amps, receivers, or speakers with built-in DAC's. I worry about all that mixing of technologies and the conversion that goes on, often without the user even realizing it.

I'm on the hunt for a new external DAC right now, something in the $500 range.

 

Your Dynaudio XD already comes with a DAC onboard, in addition to their active operation. You don't need to add an additional DAC (or shouldn't)?


Focus XD speakers - Dynaudio high-end digital wireless speaker »

 

The Oppo is no slouch but my gungnir Multibit has a better sound.

 

It's not really complicated, and none of it is hidden, as long as you read the manuals and specs of what you are using. When you play a CD, if you get digital output, it hasn't gone through a DAC (digital-analog converter) yet. If you get analog, it has. If you are sending audio via digital, you must convert analog sources to digital first; if sending digital sources, you don't need to.

Some devices with DACs also do digital signal processing (DSP); clearly, to do that, analog sources must be converted to digital first. If you don't want that, just avoid gear that does DSP. Some think it's worth the conversion (which if done properly should be as transparent as any audio operation), because of the improvements it can make with imperfect rooms or speakers.

Have fun looking for a new DAC! I'm sure you'll get plenty of suggestions -- but perhaps you should start a new thread to ask for them. You might get more responses that way. I can't suggest specific models, but it seems to me it's a great time to be looking. They have improved a lot in the last few years.

 

Just to clarify on my earlier post, there's no point in adding a DAC to your existing setup. Your actives come with a DAC onboard, 24/192. So adding a DAC elsewhere won't do anything. If you like the sound of the Dynaudios - and why wouldn't you - then keep them, but you can always go back to passives, though that is a bigger backwards step than buying a third DAC and by some distance at that. Not recommended from me as far as actives are concerned. You might want to rethink your setup a little more though.

 

Glad that you fixed DRC issue...........STUPID default setting!!!!
Coax output already set to 192.......cool........choosing between that and bitstream is fine if you are connected that way.
Volume setting of "0" relates to your OPPO's analog outputs
By going out of your OPPO at coax level you HAVE bypassed it's DAC.
You SHOULD (by thoughtful design) be able to bypass all the processing in your Dyns by simply plugging a single I/C into the "ANALOG AUDIO" section on the right hand side..........as shown here.......
Might be a good idea to read the Dyn's manual thoroughly to acquaint yourself with all it's settings regarding optimal use in digital or analog configurations.





There are PLENTY of external DAC's out there that will outperform the OPPO's AND the Dyn's.
As your Dyn's ALSO have analog inputs............your system DOES appear to enable use of an external DAC if desired.

Have you tried connecting the OPPO's analog outputs DIRECTLY to the ANALOG inputs of your Dyn's yet?
If/when you do listen this way ..........you will now hear ONLY the OPPO's DAC......and BEFORE you start.......... THAT is when OPPO volume needs to be at "0" ..........also.....ensure you have selected STEREO DOWNMIX from Menu.)

As previously mentioned..........you need to SURE that you have heard ALL the OPPO can do BEFORE making possibly unnecessary purchases.

Good Luck and keep us informed of your progress if you like.

 

Except have a potentially quite noticeable impact on SQ!!!!
Just coz there are DAC's on board his source and speakers doesn't mean he HAS to use them!!!

Wouldn't you think that the OPPO 105's DAC could well be superior to the Dyn's.?
What would your advice have been if he had a CA 752?

BTW........I am only ASSUMING that the on board DAC/DSP of the Dyn's is bypassed when connected at analog level but it does seem reasonable.

He IS rethinking his setup by wisely posting good questions here.
Brother.........Please take my post the right way buddy.......not trying to be a smarty.
Your advice is just as helpful to the OP as he DOES have some serious choices to make regarding optimal system setup for maximum SQ.

Good to see you still flying the active flag too.....

 

I never stop flying the active flag mate.

As for the issue here, I just didn't see the need to buy a further outboard DAC when there's already two or three in the existing system that can be utilised. Didn't see the Dyn's had an analogue input, so I'd go as suggested and hook the Oppo up to that.

As for what my advice would've been had it been the 752, well, I'm hearing elsewhere from Bill Mac that some have given up the 105 for the better playback of the Cambridge, as they see it, so apart from applauding that very wise choice those people have made, I'd say go with whatever suits the OP best.

These days I'm using a Kenwood DP7090 for CD playback.

 

Thanks for that. I appreciate it. No, I understand the basics of analog-to-digital conversion (and vice versa), although I admit it does start to get awfully-confusing when people start talking about upsampling, oversampling, FPGA's, filtering, etc., and all that other stuff. I don't know that much about the higher-end DAC chips and which ones are better/worse, but it seems to me that what the DAC designer DOES with the chip in question is as important as the chip itself. In other words, how he (or she ) designs the analog output section is just as integral to the sonic result as the digital input DAC chip, and DSP. I'm a fairly-intelligent guy, but math was never my strong suit (You know how certain people were born to be engineers), and digital technology is all about numbers (1's and 0's apparently, or at least that's what computers were all about in the '70's and '80's). That's the stuff that gets confusing to me.

But I do need to upgrade. I'm thinking something in the $500 ballpark. With the right one in that price range, it should put my system right where it needs to be. But a $150 or even $300 one is just holding me back. The thing is though, I run an old tube system, and I don't want the wrong, DAC, expensive or not, to compromise what I love about my receiver, speakers, and turntable (1964 Fisher 800C, '60's Dual 1019, and 1963 Wharfedale W90's), so I'm taking my time looking. There's a musicality, warmth, and "breath of life" to all three, and those are the things that are most-important to me, and I don't want to lose any of it.

With the OP's setup, I get the impression that there is more conversion going on there than he realizes (and more than there needs to be, probably, from the way it sounds). With the quality of his gear, any brittleness beyond the VERY-subtle should not be entering the picture.

 

To the OP: Just use the DAC in your loudspeakers - it cannot be bypassed by using the analog input in the back of your speakers as the amplifiers (and DSP) in your speakers are digital. If you use another DAC (such as the one in the oppo or some other external DAC) before the signal gets to your loudspeakers you will risk degrading your sound. So you need to use one of the oppo's digital outs when using it as a source. The oppo's DAC is always defeatable as all the oppo's digital audio output sockets are active whenever it is "playing". You just connect a suitable cable from one of these sockets to the digital input of your speakers.

 

Yes, I agree with that completely. The DAC I'm using in my desktop system, the Lynx Hilo, is a "prosumer" model used by mastering studios, as well as audiophiles. It uses a Cirrus chipset that no one else bothers with. It sounds great!

And the other stuff you are talking about -- it's marketed just like chrome and tailfins on cars, or new cone materials in speakers, and so on. The talent of the designer is far more important than the techniques used to arrive at it.

 

I suspect you're wrong about the speakers. As they are designed to receive a digital signal, it's very doubtful that there's a way of circumventing the internal DAC.

Of course he should not use the DAC on the Oppo, as using it would be adding an unnecessary D - A - D loop, as several of us have pointed out.

Yes, I agree that DACs do sound different, but IMO they have become like amplifiers: different, but with differences less important than the differences among speakers, speaker positions in any given room, controllable room acoustics, and mastering of the recording.

 

I'm baffled by this thread. The speakers are apparently being sent digital signals. So why in the world would you want to buy an expensive DAC just to make it analog, and then re-digitize it again to send it to your digital speakers? This approach seems fundamentally backwards to me.

Also, the use of the Oppo 105 in your system seems like a waste of a really good player to me since the only way in which it betters the 103 is with its analog outputs (which really should not be used with this whole configuration).

What you should be doing is figuring-out how to send 100% digital signals from your Oppo to your speakers. I'd recommend getting an HDMI deembedder so that you can send higher res digital signals straight from the Oppo to your digital speakers inputs.