Brian Jones at the Rock N' Roll Circus

Oh yeah. You have heard the multi-tracks. Sure pal. It's well established that it was Keith who played the slide on Jig-Saw Puzzle. He even leads the way on the early takes from the Satanic sessions. Some Jones-nerds are even argueing that Brian would never play slide like that. You are making things up. And on Flash, Brian plays an acoustic guitar. So no, he is not all over that song.

Wishful thinking. There is zero proff of that. And if you are in doubt, ask Don Was who has heard the Honky Tonk tracks from take 1. Jones is not there. In the beginning, Ian Stuart played a bigger role on the track.

Again, there is no conspiracy here. It's not downplayed by the band. Blame ABKCO as it was them who mixed it.

On his game? Yeah, sure. It's basic stuff. This is a far cry from what he had achieved earlier. Again, blame ABKCO for mixing him down. The band has nothing to do with it.

Oh, come on! Now it's just a question of creating an opinion and deciding that every note played by the man are pure gold. No Expectations are extremly shakey on that performance. He is out of it. It's a far cry from what he did on the studio version.

 

I'm not convinced that ABKCO are the ones responsible for Brian being mixed so low (aside from the obvious) on the official release.

There was clearly some overdubbing and mixing work carried out in 1968/69. How do we know it isn't a ye olde mix on the official release?

 

Firstly, what Jones recorded for Beggars, was kept. And actually they were nice to him: Jimmy Miller, a guy who himself was sidelined, has told that Jones were completly unrelieable during the Beggars sessions. Some days he would not turn up. Then, when he did, he didn't know what song they were gonna record, but showed up with a totally unrelated instrument he expected to play. Miller has said that Jones could turn up unexpected with a saxophone or a sitar, totally unaware of what song was being recorded, but expecting them to incorporate that instrument into the song.

For Let It Bleed, Jones lived when You Got The Silver, Midnight Rambler and Can't Always Get was recorded. What he played for the two first, was kept. For the latter, it's been well-established by several attending that recording session, that he wasn't interested in that track, and lay on the floor reading magazine's instead.

So no, no matter how much one can try to glorify him and that the band tried to be cruel, all his parts were actually kept.

For Taylor, he didn't write Sway and Time Waits For No One, but he had big hand in them, which I agree should have been credited. That doesn't mean he wrote them from start to finish, though.

And for Taylor being "the great songwriter", I have yet to see that potential. Now going on by it's 42nd year since he left the band, there are zero evidence of that songwriting-potential. His solo albums are mediocre rock and roll or 12-bar blues, with tunes emulating Keith in his rhythm-playing mode. Especially the debut album are guilty of that. If he had come out with great albums one after another, then I would surely blame Mick and Keith for not incorporating that. Instead, the solo album only establish that Taylor was a team-player and not a songwriter.

 

From the booklet in the cd. Engineers at mixing: Steve Rosenthal and Teri Landi. Post production: Sound mixing by Jonathan Porath.
All done in the nineties.

 

For the whole thing, but, we don't know from what they mixed for the stones section, ie 4, 8 track, stereo master?

 

Overdubs or not, Jones' guitar was always there and kept on the track, evidenced by the fact than you can hear him, just not very clear and very low. There exists boots from the multi's, so it's clear that Jones was mixed low by ABKCO.

 

Btw, this is from the cd.

 

Thing is, none of them aside from Mick and Keith probably knew what they were going to be recording on a particular day a lot of the time either. Also, of the two instruments you mentioned, they were both utilised rather well on Beggars era tracks, don't you agree?

Hmm, I think it's going a bit far to say for certainty that all his parts were kept. They weren't for Sympathy, for example, but perhaps there was more on other tracks.

He was present and played Moroccan drums on early takes of Gimme Shelter, 15th March 1969, same session that they overdubbed the choir on to YCAGWYW. Of course, the backing take which formed the backbone of the released version could have been another session or many takes later where he wasn't there.

I get the feeling he didn't like YCAGWYW. Reads up on Botany during the recording session, plays minimal as possible guitar part at Circus a short while later.

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Some of the music specific quotes could relate more to the split in personal relations within the band and musical directions rather than druggy unreliability. I am glad Brian turned up with sitars and saxophones etc, the Beggars era recordings are some of my favourite due to the combination of a supposed 'back to your roots" approach with the various spicy ingredients.

I keep in mind that Keith would most likely have preferred the stones to have stayed a two guitar band since the start and for eternity. It's obvious Brian did not share that view and it's not wrong that he didn't. But Keith's view is the one that is seen as being the one with most clout and so for a lot of people, everything is seen through that pov.

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In 1968 Brian gave a sign of a split regarding musical direction when he talked about being hung up on electronic sounds/wanted to include them on the album.

 

Boots from multi's?

There are alternate versions, mixes. There are obviously different old mixes.

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It's not clear, we don't know if they used an old mix, tried to get close to an old mix, did an all new mix, followed notes on tapes etc etc.

It isn't always there btw, the intro to YCAGWYW for example. Brian is taken right out for that, a very subtle overdubbed guitar plays instead.

 

The thing that makes me wanna scratch my head, is that it's well told that Brian hated the Satanic record and wanted to get back to basics, which I'm sure was a view shared by all of them. Then why on earth does the guy, wanting to get back to basics, turn up with a sitar or a saxophone? I'm not saying that what he contributed wasn't great, it was, but knowing his mates was recording songs in the old style, it's strange. It more sounds to me, that he was clueless in what was going on, most of the time. Then not turning up, made him very unreliable also. I'm sure his court case made him nervous, so there was an explanation for his attitude, but there are several sides to this story.

Regarding 'Sympathy', that track envolved into something else. It's well documented he was part of the song from the beginning, but then somehow faded out. What I don't understand is that, he could have played a shaker or something, but he didn't. He just chose not to participate. Maybe, and this is a BIG maybe, he felt sidelined by Keith, who played an incredible guitar-part on the track. Then again, maybe Jones simply felt he couldn't contribute anything worthwhile to the track once it envolved. It's also important to mention here (being a musician myself), that a track can take a direction where what you contribute can be seen as superflous, not serving the track. A great musician can always take a step back, not taking it personal when something turns out into something else, even if that means your part are not included at the end. It's all about serving the song, which The Stones indeed have always done.

 

I wouldn't necessarily argue with any of that. I was only taking issue with the "poor little Brian, mean old Keith stole his girlfriend and she broke his heart" thing, which I find ridiculous and misogynistic.

 

I think it's crap that Brian hated TSMR. The getting back to basics could be as much about the focus as it was the actual music. There's a weirdness about Pay Your Dues even without Brians sitar and tamboura.

He played acoustic through all the versions of Sympathy. It just got mixed out, but can be heard in places, probably due to mic bleed.

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His hammond organ part on The Lantern was mostly mixed out. They kept the swell and swirl part on intro and repeat of it later, but he played through the whole track. It's slightly audible, but the Satanic Sessions box sets tell us he made loads of flubs... probably why they mixed it out.

 

Are you telling me, that ABKCO could have used an old mix or a mixed tape from the sixties, done by the band, which erased Jones just so they could be cruel to him? Sorry, that doesn't hold water. Then we could rather doubt all of the credits printed in the booklet as well. There must be some kind of justice as to why Jones should be glorified all the time.

The VHS uses the same mix. The DVD has a new sound mix and even there, Jones are kept low, even if they could have bought him up if they wanted to. They didn't.

The booklet clearly states that the whole thing are mixed by Rosenthal and Landi, with sound mixing by Jonathan Porath. If we don't believe that, or are unwilling to, we are so far out that we could start drawing parallels into those who doesn't believe there was never a man on the moon either.

 

Maybe, but the music all became very back to basics in 1968.
On 'Sympathy', I'm sure they could have kept that guitar, if they saw it fit into the song. They didn't.
Recording a song is a proces. The finished product is another thing. There are also elements taken out of films, because it's felt it distracts the flow. If they felt the guitar was a distracted element, they mixed it out to serve the song and not because they wanted to be cruel.
Can you imagine that song with a driving acoustic? I can't.

 

Ease up mr, you are being ridiculous.

Not to be cruel, just because they tried out different mixes, like they did for everything else they have ever recorded.

The VHS and DVD mix is exactly the same. Sound mixing could mean anything, it doesn't necessarily mean they mixed the levels of the stones recording from a multi-track tape.

It's just very odd that ABKCO or the sound mixers would choose to mix one particular musician so low. I just think that decision could have been made a lot earlier in the process of the film being filmed to it eventually being released.

It's not as if the stones have never mixed Brian out of recordings before.

 

He is shown to miss some chord changes etc through each version, he also moves about creating uneven distances from mic during takes, so it could have been mixed out because it sounded crap.

Yah need to drop this "to be cruel" etc etc crap when talking to me, that's got nothing to do with where i'm coming from.

 

And fair enough. On that, I completely agree with you.

 

There's an interview with Jimmy Miller where he says that sometimes he would record Brian's contributions on a second tape machine, to keep his contributions separate from the 'real' recording (especially if Brian was a bit worse for wear). If they did a playback, he would start both machines together and hope Brian wouldn't notice they were going slightly out of sync over time. The 'Brian' tape would not be used for anything after that.

I don't know how accurate Miller's story is - if they were using 4-track there might be a good reason to do that, but on 8-track they would have enough tracks to give Brian his own track and then just erase it if it was no good.

But I think the actual reason that you can't hear Brian's guitar in '1+1' is because the sound just seems to be recorded via mics from the film crew (similar to the Beatles 'Let It Be' sessions), with maybe a mic on Mick and another one picking up the overall sound from the studio (where you wouldn't really hear an acoustic guitar over everything else). That's my memory of the sound anyway, I haven't seen it in a while.

As for why Brian is mixed so low on 'RnR Circus', I don't know

 

It is of course possible that Brians original guitar track was erased to make way for the overdubs done back in the day.
At the very most they would be recording on 8-track and a possible 8-track layout could be something like this...

01 - Drums
02 - Bass Guitar
03 - Keith Guitar
04 - Brian Guitar
05 - Piano
06 - Percussion
07 - Audience
08 - Sync Track for video

This is just a wild guess, but as you can see, recording a whole band live on 8-track may not leave much room for overdubbing.
Now, if it's Brian's part that is going to be re-worked on certain songs, that's the thing that would be erased in the process.

You could of course transfer the 8-track onto another 8-track for overdubbing, but you'd suffer generation loss and could also encounter sync problems when attempting to sync the 2nd tape to the visuals.
It's very possible that any overdubbing done back then was done right onto the 8-track.

Come 1996, they go to re-mix the tracks and there is no original Brian part on the multi's, apart from some leakage into the other mics, hence why you can hear him buried in the mix.

On "No Expectations" his playing was fine so no overdub was ever needed.
This would also explain why he is clearly audible on that track and not the others.

Of course, this is all just guess work, but it is highly possible all the same.

 

I remember thinking the same thing when I last watched it. If I recall correctly, when the song is in full swing, you can't hear the bass either.

 

I have a feeling that 'RnR Circus' might have only been recorded on 4-track actually, which might explain things (instruments needing to be pre-mixed).

 

That's very possible too.
I know Hyde Park a few months later was recorded on the Pye Mobile which was 8-track.
It's possible they used that for RnRC, but I've never seen any confirmation.

 

and of course we don't know that the sound mixers/ABKCO were not acting under direction/supervision of some Glimmer Twins

 

Wow, isn't someone in a rank mood? Please don't make assumptions. I don't know you, so you are not a "pal". Keep drinking the Stones management K00l-Aid. Have a nice day.