Headphone amp vs new headphones ?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Tripecac, Sep 25, 2016.

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  1. Tripecac

    Tripecac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    I spend all day listening to music on my Sennheiser HD 590 headphones, plugged into my desktop computer, where I have all my CDs ripped to WAV files.

    This forum has started getting me thinking more about sound quality, and I am now wondering if there is a way I can improve my listening experience.

    Specifically, I wish my headphones could have more "kick", like the speakers in the living room do. Whe I crank up the living room speakers, the bass really thumps and kick drums sound crisp. On the headphones, it seems like the low end loses some of the definition. It doesn't sound horrible, but it doesn't sound as clear as the speakers.

    So, given that I am listening to WAV files on a computer through a 1/8 inch jack, which upgrade would give me the best bang for the buck:

    a) headphone amp - Would one of these help give the HD 590s more kick and clarity?

    b) different headphones - Are the Sennheiser HD 590s holding me back?

    c) neither - Is listening to WAVs on a PC through a 1/8 inch jack inherently limiting?

    Thanks!
     
  2. FrankieP

    FrankieP Forum Resident

  3. Tripecac

    Tripecac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Thanks, I will check out the MIYO. Do you think it would sound better than the standard headphone jack coming from my sound card (Xonar)? Would it take the place of a headphone amp as well? Or would I need a headphone amp in the chain as well?

    After I posted last night, I did a bit of research about headphones, focusing mostly on Sennheisers.

    What I read is that as you go up in quality (e.g., from Sennheiser 590 to 600/650 or 700 or 800), there is more and more emphasis on getting a good headphone amp. So it could be that if I get better headphones, I will need to get a headphone amp too. Hmmm....
     
  4. xcqn

    xcqn Audiophile

    Location:
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Do you have a soundcard with enough juice?

    If you are listening to your desktop computer anyways why not get a good soundcard for it? I can recomend Asus Xonar Essence. Plenty of gain to drive almost anything. I'm using with my Senn HD600 and it sounds amazing.

    You can set the gain in three stages. Experiment with different OP-amps is also possible.
     
  5. Tripecac

    Tripecac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    My computer has 2 sound cards at the moment:

    One is the ASUS Xonar DX. That's my general-purpose card and is what I listen to all day. It's nothing fancy, and has bad ASIO drivers, so I don't use it for making music. I have my Sennheiser HD 590s plugged into it.

    My other card is an M-Audio Delta 44, with an OMNI I/O breakout box. That's what I use for making music. It has better latency than the Xonar, so it works better with soft synths. However, it picks up some of the noise inside my computer (squeaking from the power supply or some other component there in the back) and amplifies it, which is really annoying; the squeaking is particularly loud over the speakers; on headphones I can't really hear it. I have some Sennheiser HD 580s plugged into it.

    I would *love* to find a single, low-latency, non-noisy sound card (or auto interface) which would replace the ones I already have. If it were USB, I wouldn't even have to unplug the other ones, which is a plus (I hate fiddling with computer hardware). If the new card/interface also had a nice headphone amp, something that could drive my existing HD 580, 590 (or possibly a 600 or 650 if I get one), that would be a huge plus as well.
     
  6. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
    I don't know about your soundcard but the ultimate PC set up is PC-DAC-Headphone Amp-Headphones. The PC would have music management software like JRiver. That is perhaps beyond what you want.

    Headphone amps should improve your situation. You can also get combined amps and DACs, or DACs with a headphone amp. I was impressed with the Teac UD-301 for example when using HD-800 headphones.

    I'd be wary of getting strong bass in headphones so that it 'kicks' as, for me anyway, it can be uncomfortable.
     
    Robert C likes this.
  7. xcqn

    xcqn Audiophile

    Location:
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Oh sorry didn't read your above post, seems that you already have a decent soundcard in your computer.

    Of course if you go with outboard equipment you will get rid of all the potential noise from the computer.
     
  8. Gang-Twanger

    Gang-Twanger Forum Resident

    I use Grado RS2's plugged into my old Fisher 800C tube-powered receiver, and I use a DAC (digital-to-analog converter) to properly-handle my digital files. I still use my computer, but I use the external DAC and a computer app called Virtual Audio Cable (There are others as well) to bypass the computer's onboard DAC. That's where I think you need to start. You want to bypass your laptop's onboard DAC and use an external DAC to do the job properly. But that's not the only issue here. You're also relying on a laptop's onboard HEADPHONE AMP as well, and you want to handle (amplify) that signal properly as well. Your laptop's onboard DAC and headphone amp are both not terribly-good (even on the better laptops), and those are the two biggest issues holding you back right now. The HD590's were reportedly-very-good headphones. I've heard some people say they were a little bright for their tastes, but I really think you should hear what they sound like properly-amplified first before you decide to upgrade to a better/different pair.

    My Grado RS2's have a 32ohm impedance, so they sound good plugged into just about anything, but I don't know what the HD590's impedance is, so can't speak for those, but still, it's important to properly-handle your headphone signal as well the digital files themselves (or CD's played on your laptop's CD drive), and if you're just plugging straight into your laptop with those, then that's a good place to start. If you're just playing CD's on it and not playing audio & video files from a hard drive, then I would start with a headphone amp. But if you're also playing lossless & lossy files audio files (and video) from a hard drive (or drives), then you'll also want to look into an external DAC as well. Running a PC-based music server setup is a little complicated, ESPECIALLY if you're using a laptop rather than a desktop PC. Laptops are not designed to be high-quality digital music servers, which is why you have to do a bit of sidestepping and modify them a bit, thus the external DAC and headphone amp. There's a bit more to it, but I would start with the external DAC and external headphone amp.

    EDIT: Oops, I just read your above post. Since you sort of have the sound card/DAC issue dealt with, then I think a good headphone amp is the place to start. The onboard headphone amp/output on most/all laptops are horrible.

    How many ohms is the impedance on a pair of HD590's?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  9. Tripecac

    Tripecac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    The HD 590s impedance is 120 Ohm ( Sennheiser HD-590 Specs » )

    For the HD 580s it's 300 Ohm ( Sennheiser HD-580 Specs » )

    If I upgrade the headphones, I don't think I would go above the HD 650s, which are also 300 Ohm.

    I wonder: could I be under-driving the 580s? Would that explain why they sound more trebly than the 590s?
     
  10. Gang-Twanger

    Gang-Twanger Forum Resident

    I'd say BOTH pairs could use a headphone-amp if the only power they're getting is from the laptop's headphone output. Especially the 580's at 300ohms. Lots of great headphone amps out there.

    I love the sound of my RS2's, and I bet you would too, but coming from a pair of HD590's (which I understand are extremely-comfortable), I think you might find the Grados a bit rough on the ears for long listening periods. I'm used to them, having owned two pairs of Grados, but someone who has owned multiple pairs of Sennheisers may have a hard time getting used to the Grados' foam earcups. Soundwise, the RS2's have great extension, bass response, midrange, treble, etc. The bass has great punch and forwardness, so they're perfect with any kind of rock stuff, no matter the era. And yet they have the subtlety and complexity to make jazz and classical sound wonderful as well. They're really an outstanding pair of headphones for all-around use. Plus, they sound wonderful with my Fisher tube receiver, and yet they're great with laptops and portable devices. Their only real flaw is comfort. Those foam earcups do soften up over time and get a lot more comfortable with repeated use, but for a person who's been using Sennheisers for a long, long time, it might not be enough. However, there ARE some non-OEM earcups sold online for the Grados that I've heard are supposedly much more-comfortable than the factory ones. I can't remember who makes them, but I know they're out there.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  11. Tripecac

    Tripecac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    It's not a laptop; it's a desktop. I don't know if that matters, though.

    What would be a good headphone amp, something that complements the HD 580s and HD 590s (and is not overkill)?

    I would love it if the headphone amp could have 2 inputs (one from the Delta-44 and one from the Xonar) and 2 outputs (one for each pair of headphones) and a knob for selecting which input to use, and, ideally, headphone volume knobs. Is that going to be expensive, though?
     
  12. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    I would stick to the 590's ..Play your wav files on Foobar (with foobar's wasapi plug-in added) .put that signal through a usb dac and it will sound superb.
     
  13. Tripecac

    Tripecac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Do you have a recommendation for a USB DAC?
     
  14. Guildx500

    Guildx500 Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    I haven't heard one but the Audioquest Dragonfly is supposed to be good for this type of application. I'm not up to date on headphone amps. I have a Musical Fidelity X-Can V2 that I like but I haven't even plugged it in in years.
     
    EVOLVIST likes this.
  15. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    Geithals likes this.
  16. Tripecac

    Tripecac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Would I use those *instead* of my current sound cards?

    Also, would I still need a headphone amp, or would those suffice?
     
  17. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    You would use that instead of soundcards.The bit data goes straight to the dac.
    You won't need a headphone amp.
     
  18. ijustdontknow

    ijustdontknow Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego
    This forum alone has cost me more than any other forum.

    I can tell you from my own experience the last 12 months that even a sub $100 schiit fulla will make your sennheisers sound much better than using the headphone jack from your computer.
     
    roughdiamondnickel and rodentdog like this.
  19. Tripecac

    Tripecac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    The fulla is both an audio interface and a headphone amp, correct? Does that mean I would be bypassing my normal sound card(s)?
     
  20. Tripecac

    Tripecac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Okay, I think I am developing a plan... Instead of getting more expensive headphones, it seems like the consensus is to first focus on improving the earlier parts of the audio chain, which means the sound card / audio interface / DAC and/or the headphone amp (assuming one is needed and not included with the DAC).

    Questions:

    1) Do the sound card, audio interface, and DAC all perform the same function (convert digital audio date to analog audio signals)? Should we think of those as synonyms?

    2) Will any modern sound card / audio interface / DAC be able to handle audio for music, games, movies, etc.? (In the old days, we had to buy SoundBlaster cards in order to keep games happy, and I've never tried gaming with my Delta-44).

    3) Which of the following connection types would be likely to keep me under 10 ms latency (for music production) *and* be less likely at picking up computer noise than my M-Audio Delta 44s?

    a) USB
    b) Firefire
    c) PCI
    d) PCI-E
    e) all of the above

    4) Are the headphone amps bundled with DACs general lower quality than standalone headphone amps? (In other words, is it better to get components that do one thing well, or is it okay to try to get an "all in one" solution)?

    5) What combination of hardware would you recommend as giving a good "bang for the buck" when upgrading from my current chain (Xonar -> Sennheiser HD 590 with no headphone amp)?


    My budget:

    - I'd be willing to pay up to $100 for a headphone amp if it is likely to SIGNIFICANTLY improve my listening experience. I think the only people who can have a sense of how much different a headphone amp would make for me are those that are familiar with my current equipment: Xonar feeding Sennheiser HD 590.

    - I'd be willing to pay up to $200 for a DAC if it gives better latency (< 10 ms) and less noise than my Delta-44, and lets me stop using both the Delta-44 and my Xonar. Required I/O: 2 mono inputs (or better), 1 stereo output, 1 headphone jack. Even better: 2 headphone jacks, each with a separate volume knob. Is this asking too much for $200?

    - I would prefer to pay less, of course, but don't want to end up with a third audio interface that is compromised like the other 2! I would want the new one to completely replace what I am using now, because I am tired of using 2 sound cards!
     
  21. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    I'd suggest starting with a good amp that is able to properly drive the headphones. The HD 580 will sound wimpy without a good amp. With a good amp it will change and become a much more engaging headphone. A good amp will also tame brightness and give the headphones more bass definition.

    Then think about an additional headphone if the two Senns aren't giving you what you want. For example, if you're after more bass definition and texture and extension there are some planar magnetic headphones that can do that better than the Senns. The planars can get expensive, but there are some lesser expensive options like some of the HiFiMan headphones and some of the Fostex T50RP modded headphones that could do that. And there are some other headphones that can do nice textured bass. There's options. But you will need a good amp first in order to get those headphones to do their thing.

    Then think about a new AD/DA interface. The sonic difference between DACs is minor compared to what you'll get with a good amp combined with your Senns or another headphone. There are lots of different pro-sumer style home studio audio interfaces available. You may even be able to find a good used one locally (people churn through home studio gear and sell off what they don't need).

    First amp I'll throw out is the Schiit Vali 2. It's a hybrid. Which means it has a tube. Pleasant sound. Not harsh or treble happy. Should take the edge off the treble of the HD580 since you mentioned you didn't like the HD580 treble with your current amplification. It's $169 US and can be ordered with an 230V adapter. It will be a nice amp for the Senns and will leave you open to being able to consider some power hungry planars later or other power hungry headphones. Depends though on whether you're OK with a bit of tube sound. I like a bit of tube sound with headphones.
     
    Robert C likes this.
  22. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
  23. TimB

    TimB Pop, Rock and Blues for me!

    Location:
    Colorado
    Well, best bet in my book would be a dac/amp. Also check out foobar 2000, this would allow you to do a ram disc, which will reduce hard drive noise/issues. Both of these together would boost your HD590 performance. There are lots of nice amp/DAC's out there ar many price ranges. Foobar is free.
     
    warp2600 likes this.
  24. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
  25. Dan DRC

    Dan DRC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Missouri
    Your headphones are good. This is hard to beat for the price of $99. Get this and then decide on DAC as a next step up.
    Schiit Audio, Headphone amps and DACs made in USA. »
    By the time you upgrade to amp and DAC then you will probably seek out new headphones after a while.
     
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