The (very old) Roger vs Dave debate

It would be foolish to dismiss the guy's opinions based on his age. Nobody could offer an opinion on Beethoven today if that were a valid view.

It's entirely possible thanks to YouTube's mass distribution of old video material and the sheer amount of published material in the following years to be actually better informed of a band today than during their peak. For example, Beatles scholars today know far far far more than even the most alert of Beatles fans could ever have hoped to know about the group back in 1964.

 

Did he give you a 'who the hell is this old guy listening in to my conversation' look?

 

Roger Waters? Torn faced auld goat.

Way too opinionated, and from what I've heard, not the best informed. I love the music but he always was a miserable b......

 

Dave. And I am both a guitar player and a person who experienced some angst and got mad at people when I was a teen so I am most qualified to evaluate both of them

 

Understood.

If anything, I'd be guilty of the same criticism because my memory of the original Floyd is as follows:

1.) I remember "Money" as a hit single
2.) I remember the Animals tour in 1977 but I was too young to go... my concert going years didn't really start until 1981 (when I was a freshman in college)
3.) I remember buying "The Wall" album when it was new and wanting to go see the show - but I had no way to do so.
4.) I saw "The Wall" movie in the nicest theater in town at the first showing (in the afternoon) on the first day it was in theaters
5.) I remember looking at the 45 single from the The Wall movie soundtrack, when it was in stores, but I was waiting for a whole soundtrack album that never came
6.) I purchased (and enjoyed) "The Final Cut" album when it was new


My memory of Gilmour (solo and post-Roger-Floyd) is as follows:

1.) I remember the solo album Dave released in 1978 because "There's No Way Out of Here" got some radio airplay. I didn't buy the album until years later when I purchased it in a used bin.
2.) I remember the "About Face" album when it was released and I remember he did one or two small shows (at the Tower Theater) to support the album. I may (or may not) own the album. I'm struggling to remember anything from it.
3.) I remember the original marketing for the "Momentary Lapse of Reason" show I saw in 1987 seemed to suggest that only Gilmour and Nick Mason would be there - and I resisted buying a ticket until the last moment when I said "why not?" I remember getting a custom printed PINK ticket (that didn't use standard ticketron/ticketmaster stock) in the mail after I ordered one on the phone.
4.) I was completely surprised to realize that Rick Wright was also on stage with Dave and Nick - and absolutely charmed to see them open with "Echoes" and close with "Welcome to the Machine". The only down point in the show was whoever delivered the Roger vocals on "Comfortably Numb". I did notice Tim Renwick was on stage with Dave Gilmour, in part because I like Tim Renwick, but also in part because I remembered him on stage with Roger Waters during the "Pros and Cons" tour.
5.) I went and saw the "Momentary Lapse" concert two more times but I was sad to see "Echoes" dropped from the set list.
6.) I went to the "Division Bell" show at Rice Stadium that ended with a power failure - not too long after they slogged thru "Money" in a torrential rain storm. My guess is they weren't running for safety because there was probably a clause in the contract that mandated a minimum concert length.
7.) I was excited about the Pulse video because it contained a complete "Dark Side of the Moon" show, but was kind of angry that wasn't part of the shows in the US. In the end, I didn't enjoy seeing the full album played like that (while watching the video)
8.) I skipped the "On an Island" album (and mini-tour) until the box set of the Gdansk concert came out (with a suround sound version of the studio recording - and a nice version of "Echoes" featuring Dave with Rick Wright on stage)


My memory of Roger (solo) is as follows:

1.) I bought the "Pros and Cons" album early enough that my sleeve doesn't have the black square over the lady.
2.) I saw the "Pros and Cons" tour with the all-star band (Clapton, Michael Kamen, Chris Stainton, Andy Newmark, Tim Renwick, etc)
3.) I saw the "Pros and Cons" tour a second time when Roger came around a year later minus some of the musicians (most notably, no
Eric Clapton)
4.) I saw the Radio KAOS tour twice (once about 3-4 weeks before Gilmour's Floyd did a stadium gig - and again a month or so after seeing Gilmour's Floyd). I liked that Paul Carrack was in the band - and bought the album and the b-side with a live version of Carrack singing "Money"
4.) I listened to the Berlin Wall concert live on the radio, and then bought the follow-up up album/video. I liked the idea - but I wasn't too sure about some of the guest stars
5.) I skipped a purchase of "Amused to Death" - in part because there was not a tour... but mostly because my brother-in-law handed me the disc and said "Take this... I don't want it anymore" about 12 months after it was in stores
6.) I skipped two Waters solo tours because he wasn't promoting a specific album. I tried to get tickets for "Dark Side" tour at the last minute but couldn't... and was fine with sitting that one out - primarily because I didn't like the "Pulse" video with the other band.
7.) I went and saw The Wall concert when it came around the second time to the Houston market. I was blown away by the show. I don't think I'd trade my evening at that show for a chance to climb in the way-back machine and see the full Floyd at Nassau Coliseum. The staging was that good !!! Of course, the original Floyd playing with that new staging (an event that never happened) would be something that would be the most enjoyable
8.) I made sure I saw the film version of the concert in a nice theater. I enjoyed it too - mostly because of the non-concert segments.


The guy behind the counters experience seemed to be as follows:

1.) He was a teen who said "he was lucky my parents let me go" to see the Rice Stadium (weather related) fiasco.
2.) He caught the two Roger solo tours I skipped... and he seemed to hate both... but he mostly hated that Roger seemed to "trade the brand to further his agenda"
3.) He saw the most recent Gilmour show (which he didn't voice an opinion about)


The big difference between this guy and myself was I wanted to talk about all the good things I remember and he seemed to want to just talk about all the bad things he didn't like. I thought I was complimentary of both Roger and Dave - and I feel like I was lucky to see them in the configurations I saw.

I also thought that both Roger and Dave used "the brand" to further an agenda.

Dave's agenda seemed to be more about commerce and his right to earn a living.

Roger's agenda seemed more about an attempt to deliver a message. More importantly, it was the same set of messages I think he attempted to deliver while he was a member of Pink Floyd. The presentation changed but the messages seemed the same - from my perspective.


It wasn't an ugly conversation... just a little bit mis-timed (in my opinion)

 

No. He wasn't Barry from High Fidelity.

 

At peace or at war have nothing to do with it. I'd bet they are both past the point of caring, and don't give things a second thought. Ambivalence.

That's the way we should be as well... there is more to life than re-hashing this kind of thing...

 

If you're going to be reasonable, you can just leave now.

 

They went through a what?!

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

 

I thought this thread was about RANKING ROGER & DAVE WAKELING!

..who, by the way, EACH have their OWN version of The English Beat!
Perhaps, that should be the way those other guys do it!

 

I know Dave seems to have that reputation as "stubborn and resolute" - but I think some of it may have to do with Dave being tired of being asked the same things by the press. My preferred mental image of Dave is him being quick to do 50's style backing vocals for the Run Devil Run album cover of Elvis Presley's "All Shook Up".

Even Paul McCartney once gave an odd answer to tiresome Beatles question. I think Paul tried to do a Muhammad Ali rhyming thing at a 1976 press conference that ended with "If you ask me that question one more time, I'll punch you in the nose". He probably had a smile on his face at the time, but I've never seen the actual footage.

 

Oops!
I didn't realize you wrote that!!
Great minds think alike!

 

I used to be on Roger's side without apologies. I'd be on Dave's side nowadays if Momentary Lapse wasn't an album made by a corporate committee to sound more PF.

They should have ended in 80 or 83, but then we wouldn't have HIGH HOPES. I like that one.

 

Exactly. The only way to end something is to shut up about it.

 

Some people probably just don't like having conversations with you as much as you do.

 

Don't worry OP. I posted a thread today that being heavily criticized. Mondays aren't a good day for these things I suppose.

 

Boy, I wish those guys would patch it up.

 

Nice!!!!!

 

And vice versa

 

There was a time that anyone could bait me by saying a pro-Dave statement. Recently I listened to "Division Bell" with an open mind on a day when I was feeling low, and I just dropped any sort of taking sides. I prefer them working as a team, sure, but I'm happy that they made things afterwards, too. I'm afraid that if they'd been contractually forced to work together for years, there'd have been a stalemate and we wouldn't have gotten much of anything at all. Starting to really like the Dave albums.

I guess this is growing up.

 

There's no reason to take sides. Neither Roger nor David was able to achieve on their own what Pink Floyd achieved collectively in the 60s and 70s. You can hear pretty clearly what's missing from the equation when it's just one or the other, so from my perspective, they pretty much ended around the time of The Wall.

 

I wouldn't dismiss the guy's opinion because of his youth, I'd dismiss it because his judgments seem very shallow and do not logically add up. No one gets to hold The Authoritative Opinion simply because they are a musician. The debate between Dave and Roger was not based in musical technique.

And if he really called Roger "a sucky bass player", that's an instant tune-out for me. I wouldn't exchange two words with him on anything musical after that.

 

This bears repeating.

 

Roger vs Dave??? I still miss Syd! My introduction to PF was the U.S. version of Relics.
For me DSOM was their pinnacle, I never got into anything after that. It all sounded like recycled riffs from their earlier works.
Being familiar with their early works, the recycled riffs stood out on everything released on the (U.S.) Columbia label.

 

Formal musical training? So what. How much formal musical training did Paul and John have? Or Brian Wilson? Or Bob Dylan?

Genius can't be learned, and 20 years of music training isn't going to make you one.

It also isn't going to make you a brilliant critic.

(For the record: Roger had the more interesting ideas but Dave made them more musically attractive, and together they were better than apart).