Speaker shopping...dealer very critical of my amp.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by snorker, Aug 18, 2016.

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  1. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Snorker,

    The reason to work with the dealership is to take advantage of the ability to do a fair comparison of gear. Take advantage of offers to let you bring in the amp for a trial or offers to take home gear for home trial. You might be surprised by the result. I understand why dealers might genuinely dislike certain products and will be attempting to give good advice as to NOT building a system around such products. If you are looking for new speakers, it is particularly useful to hear the candidates with your own amp, there is no better way to determine how the combination will sound playing the music of your choice.
     
  2. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy Thread Starter

    Agreed. However, it would be much better if he'd let me bring home the speakers, rather than bringing in the amp.
     
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  3. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Exactly. The place to do a dem is in your own home.

    I fully get why dealers don't and why others insist on you paying up in full beforehand. I've been fortunate to have had offers to loan gear but I dislike wasting a dealer's time if I'm not likely to buy from them. That said, if you ARE buying, then you have to make a choice and while I lugged my amps in before, that's flat off the radar now, you need to hear some demo gear at home in your own setting. You might have to wait a week or two if the item you're interested in is booked out, but you need to at least have that option if you want to avail yourself of it.
     
  4. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    There are some dealers that let you take home gear to audition, but, speakers and turntables are the items they least like to lend because they are so easily damaged, particularly if they are really bulky and hard to handle. Also, speakers are what people are most interested in auditioning, so, it is hard to lend out the store's only sample. If you are a regular customer, many stores will lend out gear for trial. Have you asked about trying the Audio Notes (reasonably small and easy to transport) at home?
     
  5. Cliff

    Cliff Magic Carpet Man

    Location:
    Northern CA
    Ugh. This is why I hate going into retail shops. In my experience, they always bash the brands they don't carry. They lose my respect immediately - especially if it's something I own and am happy with.
     
  6. Lester Best

    Lester Best Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Bklyn NY
    No dealer is going to allow a home audition of spkrs & T/T & discount. Maybe if you buy the demo..........................................
     
  7. Bubbamike

    Bubbamike Forum Resident

    Dealer wants to sell you an amp. Dealer wants you to trade in your Mcintosh for bubkis because "it isn't a good amp", Dealer then wants to sell the Mcintosh for a lot more than bubkis. Dealer wants to double profit. This isn't hard to figure out.
     
  8. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    By saying it is easy to sell the McIntosh on ebay, the dealer is planning to induce the customer to take "bubkis" on a trade-in? That does not make sense. It means just the opposite--the owner can sell it easily for not that big a loss, or the dealer will offer a healthy trade-in because it can be easily sold.

    I do wonder about how many of those who find it inconceivable that a dealer (or anyone else) would find the current McIntosh gear bad sounding have actually auditioned much other tube gear. I know a lot of tube gear fans, myself included, who think their current stuff doesn't sound that good. While there may not be as many shops and opportunity to hear different gear, this is really quite the golden age of tube gear--there are PLENTY of modern manufacturers making good stuff, and a lot of vintage gear, including older McIntosh, so there is a much from which to choose.
     
  9. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I don't know about that. I have had home demos and was told to expect 10% to 12% off list. Not a huge discount, but not MSRP. I also received a decent discount when buying a preamp from the dealer who let me demo it at home. So I guess it depends on the dealership and how much competition there is in the area.
     
  10. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy Thread Starter

    What he has sounds good, but so does the MC275, IMO. Most of the Mac gear he told me was traded by other customers sounded like integrated solid state stuff. He claims one guy traded in one like mine, but I think he might have been BS'ing me on that one. Still, he is confident enough in the superiority of his product that he'll let me bring it in.

    He won't let me take the speakers to demo because they're his only pairs, so he won't have any for customers to hear in the showroom. He's a pretty small operation. He would probably let me take an amp, but that's not what I need.
     
  11. Lester Best

    Lester Best Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Bklyn NY
    I would have dumped the OP's dealer on day #1.
     
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  12. LEONPROFF

    LEONPROFF Forum Resident

    If your amp was a Beats by Dre amp you would probably be getting different results from forum members. I say bring in your amp and compare it to amps he suggests. Maybe he is right. That being said I don't think you disparage any customers equipment such as he did.
     
  13. petertakov

    petertakov Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    WOW - 6 pages of speculation and bashing over an "issue" that doesn't even exist. Some dealer told you your amp is not good and he has a better one to offer. Plus he gives you the option to bring in your amp and test it against the one he claims is better. Why don't you just do it and tell us what you heard? Do you really believe there are no better amps for a particular speaker than your Mac or you ae simply afraid to find out there is?
     
  14. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy Thread Starter

    I'm merely writing about my experience, offering a critique, and providing an opportunity for discussion and feedback. I've complimented this dealer quite a bit here. I've done business with him before, and likely will again, regardless of his opinion on McIntosh.

    One thing to note: in buying gear it is actually more than just how it sounds. Though of course it must sound good above all, there's also aesthetics, reliability, customer service, potential resale value/name recognition, the value of a long-established brand, and a host of other considerations. McIntosh has a lot of these qualities that frankly the more "artisan" manufacturers lack. If I want to sell and MC275 in a few years I can easily do so, for close to what I paid. That's not likely with a brand few know, and only one dealer sells.

    I liken it to Rolex in the watch world. Is a Patek Philippe better? Perhaps, though Rolex still has an excellent reputation. However, although Patek is well-known among afficianados, not many others have heard of them. It makes them hard to sell used, compared to say a Rolex Submariner. It's also about the aesthetics. If you want the look of a Submariner, you don't look at a Patek Calatrava. Both are good, but there are different reasons for choosing one over the other. You can make the same analogy with cars, motorcycles, etc. Why doesn't everyone buy a Tesla? It uses no gas and has great performance. Why does anyone choose a Honda over a Harley?

    So it is here. I like the MC275. I'm not trading it. My dealer's gear is also good. But there are reasons I didn't buy it. If his amp sounds better with a particular pair of loudspeakers so be it (though gay is subjective, and I don't always agree with him on what sounds best). I'll just find the speakers that sound best with my gear—to my ears—that are in my budget.

    So, I will likely bring in my amp to play it with his speakers. Not because I want to trade it, but because I want to hear how it sounds with all the different speakers he sells that I am considering.

    Thanks all for the great feedback! :thumbsup:
     
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  15. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Even if the dealer's amps do turn out to be demonstrably better, there is still the issue of whether it is so much better that the cost of an upgrade is warranted. That is entirely a personal judgment. But, one should keep an open mind about keeping the 275 or replacing it; it is easy to fall in love with legacy brands and good looks, but there is no such thing as a component that matches everyone's system and taste.

    Also, to be fair to the 275, even if it comes up short on the comparison, you really need to try it with other tubes. Amps change dramatically with different complements of tubes in them. The priority of companies selling tube gear is to put in tubes that are cheap, plentiful and reliable. As to the sound quality, each buyer will have different tastes and system matching needs, it is impossible to determine what would sound best, so manufacturers sensibly do not put in much more expensive tubes that may actually be moving in the wrong direction for the buyer.

    McIntosh does have great name recognition, resale value and good looks. My concern with the brand is that it is under new management and it is not clear what direction is being taken with the brand. There were aspects of the build of the new 275 that I would be concerned about, such as the very unconventional use of a press fit printed circuit board to make all of the connections to the inputs AND even to the connections between the output transformer and the speaker terminals. I know this makes it so much easier and cheaper to build, but, I would be a bit concerned about the impact on sound quality and long term reliability given that this is not a conventional build practice. While I have not seen the inside of their output transformers, you can find a lot of discussion on how Mac no longer winds them in the same way they did in the past (issues related to interleaving windings and inserting insulation between layers of windings). I have no idea if these issues, ultimately, adversely affect the product; but, I think one cannot rely on their past reputation as a measure of the current company's products. That is the case with a whole lot of companies that have made big changes under new management, like Sonus Faber and Thiel; new management might mean new blood and better products, or it might mean hollowing out the brand.
     
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  16. Lester Best

    Lester Best Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Bklyn NY
    The OPs dealer & his ilk are what might be the coup de gras of hi end audio.
     
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  17. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy Thread Starter

    A little OT, but here's Alan Shaw of Harbeth on amps and power. My dealer is a big fan of SET amplifiers with very little power, as are many on this forum. He also sells Harbeth. Shaw, the designer, is essentially writing that these amps cannot possibly sound better than a "bigger" more powerful amp. Shaw has written extensively on this, at one point writing:

    "Amplifiers should be selected not for 'sound quality' (whatever that is) but for facilities, design integrity, durability, after care and likelyhood of being able to source service parts in 5 or 10 years."​

    My point, reasonable minds can differ, and often do. That's one reason I'm sticking with a known brand like McIntosh. Whatever one may think of its current ownership, the company has stood the test of time, and continues to sell well. The current MC275 has received excellent reviews in the press, like from Stereophile magazine, for whatever that's worth. Some have argued that the manufacture of the amp appears poor in the "How it's Made" video. Yet, we have no videos of how any other amps are made by which to make any reasonable comparison.

    So, rather than trade the amp to this dealer, I'd be more inclined to add a second one and run them as mono blocks. Or trade it for another more powerful amp from McIntosh or another well-known and regarded brand with a substantial dealer network.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  18. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    just try different amps with the speakers youll have chosen and pick the prefered amp combination. speaker/amp synergy goes much farther then how much Watt your speaker needs.

    if you buy a more laid back speaker, combining that speaker with a laid back amp will be too much of a good thing, ect.
     
    snorker likes this.
  19. gslasor

    gslasor Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    The 'beths I've heard all like power.
     
  20. Clay B

    Clay B Forum Resident


    Its not an issue of a better amp. There's always a better amp. Its a discussion of a method of doing business (ridiculing the equipment a customer already has) that many believe should not be rewarded.
     
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  21. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    Agreed. I'm not really a fan of the contemporary 275 either, but that isn't the point. If that's genuinely where the dealer is coming from, there's a diplomatic way of suggesting "that will of course work, but be advised there might be better pairings".
     
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  22. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy Thread Starter

    I am really reluctant to revive this thread because I really do like the dealer in question, and he has great gear, but...

    Paul Seydor in The Absolute Sound just gave the MC275 a glowing review. He ran it through Mac's new C22 preamp (which has nearly identical specs to the C2500 I have) and he paired it with the Harbeth 40.2, which he called "the best three-way speaker system I’ve ever heard." I feel I must hear those 40.2s with my amp now!
     
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  23. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    This very mindset from Alan Shaw is how I approach amplifiers as a rule. I look at those very issues. I also prefer companies who take care of their older products. His approach is sensible and is well reasoned.
     
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  24. Snooker,

    I know you don't want to disparage any dealers around here, but if you could just name the town the business is in that would be great. I live in your neck of the woods.

    It's not that I want to avoid it. Frankly, I might even check out the merch; there aren't too many good stereo shops in the DMV area. There might be somewhere that I've missed. Particularly if they sell some vintage gear, as well.

    Or you could just let me know on my private messaging board. Thanks!

    Bill
     
  25. RhodesSupremacy

    RhodesSupremacy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Away, India
    What the dealer did was a condemnable faux pas.
    I'll say though, while I have nothing to comment on that particular amp, "stereophile liked it" doesn't really mean anything.
     
    murphythecat likes this.
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