Which gear reviewers do you respect / trust?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by cesare, Aug 4, 2016.

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  1. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Richard Austen (posted above) had a great explanation of the Stereophile class system, I think it was on AK. Maybe he will post it here.
     
  2. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Not just speakers. Every category can have a "boner of the month". The reps do a full court media blitz when new products are announced- but the consumers have the final word.
    BTW the KEF LS50 is still a very strong product.
     
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  3. Manimal

    Manimal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Southern US
    Agreed, the LS50 will remain a strong product for the next umpteen years and deservedly so but pushed aside for the latest craze..crazy:)
     
  4. qwerty

    qwerty A resident of the SH_Forums.

    My own ears.
    Reviews can be interesting, not always useful.
     
  5. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    I enjoy the music reviews, the pictures and the measurements when lucky enough to come across them. The gushing superlatives from the reviewers are ridiculous
     
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  6. Diamond Dog

    Diamond Dog Cautionary Example

    Would you feel differently about Stereophile if your ATC's had gotten a rave ? Do you feel any differently about your ATC's because they didn't get a rave ? If you're happy with them and they're doing the job for you, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. None of the gear I currently enjoy ever got a sniff from Stereophile AFAIK and I couldn't care less. No big whoop. I wouldn't own some of the stuff they call the cream of the crop.

    D.D.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  7. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    im really not affiliated enough to any brand in particular. I will never use just one brand of speaker anyway. I personally really dont care, but I do care that probably a lot of people do take their rating seriously.
    They compare atc 19 vs atc 7 by saying: " oh yeah, 3 months ago with a different amp and dac, I tried the atc scm7. going by memory, I find the atc 19 much better"and then they base their rating in this way!
    seriously? its embarrassing. its beyond amateur. In headphone world, that would be unthinkable to hear something like that by a good reviewer who compare by memory two headphone with different gear and hope to be taken seriously. at innerfidelity and many reviewer, they will really develop on the comparison between different headphone.

    stereophile rating is so far from being professional its not even funny: it gives them zero credibility. its incredible they still get mention so often and their rating taken in consideration knowing how unprofessional they build their rating.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  8. johnt23

    johnt23 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    I don't like all the rhetorical tricks they use to give the impression of rigor and substance. It all depends on how they want to frame the product.
    It's always "it did some very nice things, very satisfying and, er, musical, this one minor issue was a bit disconcerting but that's really just splitting hairs, I could be very satisfied with this product, it either A. represents a great value or B. is admittedly a bit pricey, but represents something special. And then finally, two thumbs up, a solid recommendation to everyone who is looking for a great product.
     
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  9. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I will repost it here.

    Stereophile's rating system Class A-D and their product of the year selections:

    Take the DeVore Orangutan ($12,000) which was rated class B but the 3xL ($3,000) was rated class A. I asked John Atkinson if class A was better than class B and yes - any and all class A products are viewed as better than all class B products regardless of price.

    I pointed out to them that it was ridiculous because Art Dudley BOUGHT the Orangutan over the 3XL - so if it is better then why would their own reviewer BUY a worse speaker and pay 4 times more money. A few months went by and they have now put the Orangutan in class A.

    They are inconsistent - the reason typically that John overrides the decision of the reviewer is based upon the weaker measured performance - hence Art Dudley ranked the AN E as A++ but it got a B because the specs AN lists were not met under Stereophile's test - but the DeVore is a similarly bad measuring loudspeaker and also doesn't meet spec - Harbeth's 40.1 is similar - while it meets spec closer it's the worst of the three in the specs that it does meet.

    Product of the year is also a point based system - Each of their main reviewers gets to cast a vote for first, second, and third choice. Example 5, 3 and 1 points. 12 reviewers cast votes and 10 have heard the speakers.

    Out of the 12, 10 may have auditioned the KEF LS-50 and lets say 4 of them give it a second place vote and 4 give it a third place vote - and 2 hate the speakers.

    Total points for the LS-50 is 16 points. None of them actually think it is the best product of the year but it has the most points.

    Another speaker may have only been heard by 3 reviewers - all three could vote it first place but because only three people heard it it gets only 15 points.

    Further - to get product of the year only one reviewer is required to have heard the product at home - all other judgements can be made under show conditions

    Hi-Fi Choice also factors in things that have nothing to do with sound Quality. In their blind level matched sessions with a panel of their reviewers and manufacturers they chose my Audio Note OTO as 'easily' the best sounding amplifier BUT they awarded another amp the winner because it had a remote control, runs less hot, has a lot more power. The OTO is 10 watts. This is understandable in the sense that the other amp could drive most anything and is "safer" to buy in the sense that it will drive any loudspeaker BUT most people often just scroll through and read 5 stars is higher than 4 stars so it must be better. Or that while the OTO got 5 stars the other amp got 5 stars and editor's choice - the same thing happened with the Sugden A21a - best sounding amp but lost to the Roksan Kandy - The Sugden walks all over the Roksan on sound - I have reviewed the latter and extensively heard the former. But the Sugden has 3 less years on the warranty - no remote - 20 watts - the Kandy is feature rich - 125watts per channel - and it does sound excellent - still if you're more about the sound quality than the surrounding fluff - you might miss this deeper research if you just read "Kandy won the shootout"

    Treat these things like Siskel and Ebert's top 10 lists - Ebert would have a movie number one - Siskel may have ranked it number 9 or out and out didn't like it. Just like the KEF.

    On Dagogo's writing staff I am mostly on track with Jack Roberts and Art Dudley of Stereophile and Bob Neil formerly of Positive feedback - we all like the same kinds of amps and speakers - and if each of us put down a top ten list of current models you'd probably see 5-7 of the same ones on all our lists. In different orders but pretty close.

    What I used to say is look for fairly wide consensus across a number of review publications and if there is wide consensus for something it's probably good - but even here it doesn't mean you will concur - Magnepans for example have terrific reviews from virtually every print and non print magazine, a very wide fanbase on forums, and they've sold for over 40 years - I'm not a huge fan of their sound nor are many of my friends or numerous people who review or even sell the brand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  10. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    We seem to agree on a lot.

    Of course having a code of ethics is no guarantee that everyone will always follow it. But having it, in writing, and ensuring that all your employees know it and refer to it, and having a corporate culture that values it, and having consequences when someone violates it, well, that's kind of all you can do, and it matters.

    I don't know that every audio journalist, to be a good journalist, needs formal training. I've been a professional journalist for 25 years, and I DO have a graduate degree in journalism from a major j-school, but journalism is very much a kind of apprentice craft. Which is fine, if you apprentice in it. Many great journalists I've come in contact with just worked their way up by doing shoe leather journalism on the job. But sitting at home reviewing hifi gear exclusively is a different kind of apprenticeship that doesn't necessarily breed the kind of skepticism and reportorial vigor that, say, years of political or land use or police beat reporting might, though I suppose it can prepare someone to be a good audio journalist if the culture in which the person apprentices is one of strong journalist ethics and skepticism and thoroughness and if there's strong, professional editorial oversight. There are some pros on the mastheads of some of these mags. Fred Kaplan's a Pulitzer Prize winner with experience covering international politics and nuclear weapons, for one.

    I understand there is always going to be an uneasy compromise between business survival and conflicts of interest or appearances of conflicts of interest in ad-supported publishing, especially trade publishing or specialty interest ad-supported publishing where sources and advertisers all come from the same, typically tight-knit community. As someone who has served as a publisher of a small trade publication, I sympathize with anyone trying to navigate the challenge of maintaining journalistic integrity in that environment. You do your best, you try to be transparent, you make choices, sometimes they cost you money, sometimes they undermine your reputation -- like the Musical Fidelity thing you describe. I didn't know that, but there certainly does seem to be a lot of and a lot of rosy coverage of the brand in Stereophile, I think that's a bit of a corrosive compromise.

    Your final point about style and cliche....my pet peeve, what's really driven me away from reading much in the way of audio magazines at all, beyond the all-positive-all-the-time thing, which is deeply corrosive, and the kind of repetitious language about small, subjective differences, is the sheer amount of self-focus and navel gazing in so many of these reviews. So many begin with "I" and spend 20% or 30% of their word count on personal blather. I understand that 30, 40 years ago that was kind of the alt-audio press style as Sterophile and later TAS, and it was kind of refreshing and engaging when it existed as an alternative. Now, it seems to me just a kind of reflexive spasm filling column inches in a manner that apparently is just considered the way it's done. I'd love to seen an issue of one of these mags where the writers are challenged to write without ever using the personal pronoun or writing about themselves.
     
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  11. Lester Best

    Lester Best Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Bklyn NY
    Audio reviews consist of 1/3 anecdotal BS, 1/3 repitition of the mfg's white paper BS, & 1/3 of old chestnut demos & recollection going as far back back as months or even yrs from a lunkhead who couldn't tell you what he had for lunch 2 days ago.
     
  12. tyinkc

    tyinkc Senior Member

    Location:
    Fontana, Wisconsin
    I RESPECT Dudley, Atkinson and a few others, but I TRUST my own ears......period.
     
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  13. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Couldn't agree more. Whether you or myself are or are not qualified to review products, who is to say? Does a review require technospeak ability, who knows?

    My observation is that 2/3's of all reviews seem to go on and on about listening to some specific records, CD's, Blu-ray movies...

    On the third track of XXXX album, 1 minute and twenty seven seconds into the song, when XXX musician plays a cymbal solo, the high's shimmer and XXX...

    Who cares! how many readers do they expect, out of the total readership, do they think, have or are familiar with that specific album? If not, are they expecting that you or I, will rush out and purchase that album, so we an cue up that 37 seconds of music, that the review speaks about?

    Whether I would be qualified or not as a reviewer, I don't think I could bring myself to regurgitate all that hogwash.

    If a reviewer wanted to comment on hi-hat cymbal sounds, who cares what record he is listening to? Surely, as a reviewer, I would have several albums, with music containing hi-hat cymbals or whatever. As a reviewer, I would have selected those albums, because I know, from real life, what cymbals, sound like and I would have selected optimum samples to listen to when reviewing.

    I don't have to know, where he is obtaining his cymbal sound from. I'm assuming that the reviewer knows what a cymbal sounds like. Either it sounds realistically like a recording of a cymbal should sound like or it does not. In the event that it does not, I would expect him to describe what he is hearing and why it does not sound like a cymbal should sound like. It is not necessary for him to describe to me what a cymbal sounds like. Either I know what a cymbal sounds like. His explanation of what a cymbal sounds like is of no use to me, if I have never listened to the sound of a cymbal, live or on a recording.

    Now, is a audio reviewer, qualified to critique the individual sound of different instruments? Does he know what brand of cymbal is being played? the size of the cymbal? If he was a working percussionist, maybe yes? If that is the case, would he know enough about a string section to critique the violin section of an orchestra? I doubt that he would. Maybe it is thin sounding? Does he know how many violins are playing? does he have the sheet music in front of him? Doubtful!

    Maybe some professional musician's observation's, could contribute to the review?

    How about people that are familiar with the sound of the band in different live venues and their recorded sound on different systems.

    I mean, how does the reviewer know what the band, is supposed to sound like?

    His reference, system, which may change here and there through the year, so how much of a reference is it actually? Say, there are 6-8 reviewers on staff, do their reference systems all sound alike? Doubtful? Are we provided with a waterfall graph of his room acoustics, through his reference system and the system being reviewed? I haven't seen any of these yet. Oh, and they all use different audiophile interconnects, which, if I understand the principle correctly each alter the signal in different ways that plain old wire does not. Same with speaker wire. So why not use plain old OFC wire for each review, so we take all those differences, if indeed there are some?

    Would it be a shame if both the reviewers of Stereophile and TAS used the same 12 gauge copper wire for their reviews. That way, if I am interested in a Speaker reviewed by Stereophile and another reviewed by TAS, I at least, have some base to know that there is some similarity to how the sound is getting to each speaker and can then I might have more confidence in being able to better evaluate the sound of the speaker, without coloration's produced by the sound different exotic cables. Since I am unlikely to have the same cable as one reviewer let alone both reviewers. Even if I have exotic cables of some sort on my system, at least I can have an extra few feet of RCA speaker wire from Amazon that I can use to initially evaluate my purchase, before I start messing around with it. Because of the differences in each speaker, I doubt that, changing to another speaker, would produce optimum sound with a different speaker. How long are the speaker runs anyway?

    What is the measured voltage, going into the review equipment?

    At what SPL, is the reviewer listening to the system under review?

    What is the average temperature in the reviewer's room, the barometric pressure and the humidity? What is the level of the ambient background noise? Any bumped frequencies in the background noise that might skew the results?

    Lastly, how old is the reviewer? How is the hearing of the reviewer? Are we provided with a an extended graph from an audiologist (hearing up to 20K).

    Other than those few minor points, I can have absolute confidence in each and every professional review that I read.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
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  14. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    :laugh::laugh::laugh:

    I agree. I find this Forum, AK, and Vinyl Engine to be far more valuable then 90% of professional reviews. The cymbal things is a great example. Is the guy using such an example a drummer in a band or a percussionist? Can he tell the difference between a hi hat and a ride? What if the hat is two China's? I mean who are these guys? I could go on and on. I mean you have to give me something other than the fact you own a thesaurus and have too much time on your hands to gain credibility.

    This forum is a great resource. When someone says they like something I can see what gear they choose to buy with their own money and what music they like to listen to. Odds are I have even participated in a post or two with them. The gentleman who's name graces this site is a great engineer. I've listened to several of the albums he remastered and own a couple and find his tastes somewhat similar to mine. So I find his recommendations for versions of albums and pressings and gear are of value amd have merit because of his tangible contributions to the world.

    I mean who are these guys writing for publications and websites, that survive on ad revenue, that proclaim 600 dollar turntables to be the equivalent of 3000 dollar turntables or who right that the increased air between instruments is what makes a 500 dollar USB cable better than a 30 dollar USB cable? Credentials please?
     
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  15. No Static

    No Static Gain Rider

    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    I'm finding this thread to be highly enlightening...like several veils have been lifted from my understanding of how some reviewers think.
     
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  16. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I share the same opinion with you, the exchange of intelligent information and the ability to be presented educated point of views means something to me too.

    I have little time or patience with self important people, be they reviewers or whatever.

    That is why I am here! Wouldn't be anywhere else!

    I have learned so, so much. Stumbled across the forum from time to time when in search of specific information. It stood head and shoulders above everyone else. I am a believer in having a good infrastructure in place. The Gort's were a positively brilliant idea. Growing up on 50's Sci-Fi, and watching The Day The Earth Stood Still and understanding the message, even as an eight year old, carried a lot of weight with me.

    I run a small motel. I deal with all types and know the importance of having and enforcing rules. Without, rules in place, the inmates will run this asylum.

    S&G
     
  17. HiFiGuy528

    HiFiGuy528 Formerly Dj_AmTraX

    Location:
    Bay Area
    My website HiFi Insider is supported by my passion for the hobby. No manufacturer ads on the site. Hope you guys like it.

    REVIEWS ยป
     
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  18. The Seeker

    The Seeker Forum Resident

  19. Slack

    Slack Forum Resident

    Paul Miller I respect.
    He dared to suggest that the humble Sony CDP 715 was the best sounding CD players available and used it as reference for many years.And it still is one of the best sounding ever made some 20 years on.
     
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  20. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    Great (and informative) thread.

    So we're doing the bump...


    [​IMG]
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  21. nosliw

    nosliw Delivering parcels throughout Teyvat! Meow~!

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Ian at HiViNyws channel on YouTube.
     
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  22. Claude Benshaul

    Claude Benshaul Forum Resident

    I do actually trust reviewers. I trust them to print the most flattering pictures of the equipment they reviewed.

    That's basically the only thing I find interesting in professional reviews.
     
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  23. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    +1. He actually *gasp* rips on stuff that's inferior sonically, no punches pulled. He definitely looks out for his audience.

    The reviewers at TAS and Stereophile would likely crap their pants if they ever had to do that. :sigh:
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
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  24. Juan Matus

    Juan Matus Reformed Audiophile

  25. nosliw

    nosliw Delivering parcels throughout Teyvat! Meow~!

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    There's a number of YouTubers who peddle really low-end equipment like the Crosley/Jensen/ION/1byone (who sends them to random YouTubers for reviews), who are just as bad, if not worse.
     
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