HDCD sound without decoding?

20-bit, eh? In few spots only, IME...

 

i mean, that is what the HDCD encoding process did, noise shaping and encoding for "virtually" four more bits of dynamic range on a standard 16/44 pcm signal. ymmv.

 

Nice try...

 

i don't understand your issue here. Not a "nice try" by me. That is how hdcd works, it is not a secret despite being a very proprietary format. My ears tell me an hdcd decoded disc can sound great.

 

^^^ Follow the link in my post you replied to...

 

Thanks for sharing that.

Now what HDCDs use LLRE?
Is there a list?

In my experience, HDCD decoded will always sound better than the redbook on that particular cd.
But in the long run it always comes down to the mastering.
I'd rather have Steve's The Cars s/t redbook DCC cd than the awful Elektra HDCD.
In fact, all of The Cars Elektra HDCDs are awful.
Not because of HDCD but because of the mastering.

We need a list of the best HDCDs, because I'm sure there are some that stand out.
Despite Steve's abandoning it. (And he did do a pretty good job with Heartbeat City on HDCD).

 

When I play HDCD on either of my two non-supporting players, I get a little "hiccup" at the beginning of the first track. Almost like a dropout.

 

The list I listed includes whether there is LLRE. In the list the LLRE is called gain.
HDCDs with Peak Extend »

I have never owned a CD player that does true HDCD decoding. And I haven't listened to a true HDCD player enough to compare or get familiar enough with it to offer an opinion about whether HDCD decoded will always sound better.

All my HDCD listening at home has been with software decoding. For discs that don't have Peak Extend or LLRE I don't hear a difference between decoded and non-decoded. However, some of the software decoders have been reported to reverse the absolute polarity when decoding. If you are using a software decoder that flips the polarity then you could end up hearing a difference when there really shouldn't be.

I haven't checked if the HDCD decoders I've used over the years have reversed the absolute polarity or not. It's a project I'll get around to one of these days, maybe. I don't consider it really important. And I'm lazy.

 

Buy an old DENON DVD player with HDCD capability like the 3910, you sure will hear a warm and very natural sound, I think it's close to the best SACD. Some great HDCD : Jack Johnson by Miles Davis and the HDCD Beach Boys and Scott Walker.

 

Or, you could buy one of these for under $100.00
Saw one on the Bay for $70.00 recently.


This is the ORIGINAL PS Audio DL Three - from the 1990's.
Designed by the guy who left PS to found Threshold.
It's heavy and built like a tank!
Three inputs: Toslink, Coax and AES/EBU
An HDCD light suddenly appears when the chip is used.

At first it was dry and papery sounding.
Cleaned the connectors and wham!
Solid and smooth presentation.

 

Thanks. I didn't know LLRE was referred to as gain.
Isn't gain just...gain? Or does this gain refer to actual low freq extension?
Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

LLRE stands for Low Level Range Extension. It adjusts the gain of low level signals (not low in frequency, but low in volume) to help low level signals seem to be more resolving. For most music the LLRE will only kick in for fade-outs at the tail end of the fade-out. With LLRE decoded the fade-out will be smoother and seem to trail off longer. If you don't decode the LLRE then the fade-out will get a stair step type effect in volume and not fade-out as smoothly and will trail off sooner.

LLRE is also called gain scaling. Which is why the HDCD decoder tool I use called it gain instead of LLRE. Here's a page with some technical speak explaining what LLRE is doing: Goodwin's High End - HDCD Gain Scaling »

 

Great. Thank you.
So this provides what compression does without "compressing" the sound?
If so, it's a shame HDCD didn't take off.
Most of my HDCDs decoded do sound a little louder (and smoother) than when undecoded.

Another question: why would a "software" HDCD decoder not work as well as a chip in a dac?
Is the audio coming from the computer via analog outputs? If so, no wonder it doesn't sound better.

 

Interesting topic. I use a EAD 7000 mk 3 dac with built in hdcd decoding. The HDCD encoded discs that I have, always sound great and generally better than the run of the mill redbooks. I do think that HDCD is under appreciated by most, that is until they get a chance to hear it.

 

The LLRE (gain) is a feature to help the DAC sound like it has more bits of resolution than it has with low level signals (signals that used very few bits, where some DAC could have used a little extra help).

The decoding is done digitally. There is an optional option for CD players that implemented HDCD decoding to decode the LLRE using an analog gain. But there was also the option to do the same digitally. Peak Extend is decoded digitally. Both Peak Extend and LLRE can be decoded digitally. Software decoders can do that just as well as the chip in HDCD players. The main issue with the software decoders is that they're the result of reverse engineering the HDCD spec. HDCD is a closed source and patent protected process. The software decoders aren't official decoders. So we're left to wonder whether the software decoders have been fully and properly implemented based on reverse engineering. They likely have been done properly.

My take on HDCD is that the most important part of the process, and the part that influences the sound quality the most, is that the Pacific Microsonics AD converter that was used to create HDCD masters is a fantastic AD converter (Pacific Microsonics developed HDCD). That AD converter has a very special sound. And that special sound is the heart of the magic of HDCD. The magic isn't the encoding and decoding of the magic HDCD bits. The magic is that the Pacific Microsonics AD converter sounds really really really good. And I like that style of sound a lot. I like the style of sound it does. I would have preferred that they had just made the AD converter as a standard AD converter without the HDCD garbage. It would have probably sounded even better without the HDCD garbage stealing an extra bit or two to do the HDCD encoding.

To me the most important part in playing back and HDCD title is to have a very good DAC that is able to deliver the magic sound that the Pacific Microsonics AD converter is capable of. The HDCD decoding is secondary. I would rather listen to all of my HDCD titles undecoded using a really good DAC (like a Schiit Yggdrasil or Schiit Gungnir Multibit) than a lesser DAC playing fully decoded HDCD files. To me, the Schiit multibit DACs are really good playing anything that has been encoded using the Pacific Microsonics converter. Other DACs can do well too. The Schiit multibit DACs just happen to be ones that I have experience with, and I like them.

With a good DAC the HDCD discs deliver a sense of sonic depth and focus that few other AD converters can match. You lose a little bit of stereo width to get that, but the gain in depth and layering and focus and wonderful midrage is so worth it (midrange with that extra depth is awesome). If you play a HDCD disc and clearly hear that extra depth and focus then you've got a good DAC for HDCD playback. If you hear that there seems to be maybe a little bit more depth but nothing really special, then you've got a lesser performing DAC. When you've heard the difference between the two it will be obvious.

If you've got a good DAC for HDCD the decoding becomes secondary and the decoding becomes icing on the cake. If you have a poor DAC for HDCD then the decoding becomes primary, especially for discs with Peak Extend. I had heard other people say the same about HDCD playback. But until I got my Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC and experienced that for myself I didn't understand or appreciate what they meant. The magic of HDCD is that the Pacific Microsonics AD converter is very good. All you need is a good suitable DAC that allows you to hear what the Pacific Microsonics converter is capable of.

 

Thanks for the great info Ham.
As mentioned earlier, I have, in addition to several cd players, the original PS Audio DL Three dac from the 1990's.
One thing that stood out to me is exactly what you described.
Whether playing (HDCD or cd) this dac has a great deal of 3-d depth, but also a recessed and narrower soundstage.
Sometimes it's like looking into a big box - a large diorama - but the sound remains between and behind the speakers, not beyond their sides.

I wonder what chip the PS Audio uses?
I've even called PS Audio, talked to the head guy and even he couldn't find anything.

 

When using the PS Audio DL Three DAC do you hear more depth with HDCD discs than with regular CDs?
I've heard some DACs that do a depth thing with even regular CDs. Some of the SABRE based DACs are capable of doing that. The goal with a good DAC for HDCD is to have it do that depth thing better with HDCD discs than it does for regular CDs.

 

Anyone know if the PS4 can decode an HDCD?

 

Just curious, what edition is that? My standard retail 2005 CD isn't HDCD-encoded in any way.

 

Never heard of a HDCD encoded Revenge Of The Sith, too.

 

I wouldn't worry about it. Either you like HDCD or you don't. I've heard it decoded on Uber expensive Mark
Levinson stuff and it still sounds unacceptable to me. It is not consistent from top to bottom in terms of frequency spectrum. Some portions of the frequency range sound great, some don't.

If you subscribe to the hi mags and what they say then go for HDCD and don't look back, if you don't, then just play it undecoded and it is what it is. If you are willing to accept some artifact in your music don't limit yourself! There is UV22, Super Duper Gain System MOFI Gold discs, Audio Fidelity, Keith Johnson stuff, the world is your oyster!

Best of luck in your search.

 

My copy bought on release day in Spain (Euro standard edition with a DVD included, all artwork in English and CD made in Austria by Sony Music) is HDCD encoded, I've just checked on my US Oppo BDP-93. The first track may be hard to ID by some players, I don't know why, but skip to track 2 and all the following ones and you'll see your players show it's an HDCD disc. It also rips as an HDCD by dBPoweramp so the output tracks are 44.1/24.

 

does anybody know how to find (and turn on) the HDCD facility in the dBpoweramp DSP area?

newest 6.12 trial version on a Mac (they say it has HDCD)

 

If you rip an HDCD to FLAC will it then play back at full bit resolution off a hard drive if you don't have HDCD capability on your player on the transport?

 

If the HDCD disc has peak extend or gain you'll need either a DAC that decodes HDCD or software that decodes HDCD to get the files to play back at the full resolution they were intended. Foobar has a plug-in that can decode HDCD on-the-fly during playback. dBpoweramp, CUETools, and some other tools can be used to pre-process the files and decode them to a 24-bit/44.1 kHz file to get the full bit resolution of HDCD.

If the HDCD disc does not have peak extend or gain then a regular DAC will play them back with effectively the same bit resolution as an HDCD DAC.