Evidence of RCM effectiveness? I must be doing something wrong...pic heavy. Some Floyd content.

Hi all,
New to these boards, new back into stereo and vinyl for the first time in forever, and have tried to read and search the forum here and not sure if I've found something like this; have any of you checked evidence of your RCM effectiveness? There must be several ways.

I decided I would use video on my iPhone 6S to record, under identical circumstances, before and after cleaning a few records on my new Okki Nokki.

First test; an exceptionally clean soundphile series jazz record with a long break between songs. In this case Hello, Hank Jones https://www.discogs.com/Clifford-Jordan-Hello-Hank-Jones/release/5552083 - between Bohemia After Dark and Love For Sale

Top waveform is only discwasher dry clean, middle is after cleaning with Okki Nokki diluted solution and drying, bottom is after rinsing with distilled water. Used same vacuum wand and goathair brush (rinsed in distilled water):


Looking closely it seems I may have just pushed some dust around, or created static, which was not fully cleaned or dissipated. Certainly the bottom two waveforms are not less noisy in the quiet areas between songs.

These audio and video recordings, which show the small room and seating location, are available as youtube videos:
Before RCM


After Okki Nokki solution RCM but no rinse
Hello, Hank Jones Soundfile Series - end of Bohemia After Dark and beg of Love For Sale »

After rinse
Hello, Hank Jones Soundfile Series - end of Bohemia After Dark and beg of Love For Sale »


For test 2, the procedure and equipment were the same as above. The only difference was a new record was played, one which had been played only one time before after a wet discwasher cleaning. Prior to this test, all that was done was a discwasher dry clean, briefly, as above. The record is David Bowie's Hunky Dory, at the end of Song for Bob Dylan and before Queen Bitch.



Finally, I got a second dedicated 12" wand for vacuuming the rinse cycle. I used an anti-static carbon fiber brush prior to each play. Nevertheless I still used the same goathair brush for both the solution and rinse cycles. I air dried after solution and after rinsing for 10 minutes each, at least. I did not record after solution, instead after (solution + rinse)

In this test, I used both a 1974 Japanese pressing of Meddle https://www.discogs.com/Pink-Floyd-Meddle/release/2888413 and the recent 2016 https://www.discogs.com/Pink-Floyd-Meddle/release/9092521.
The recording is of the end of the chant in Fearless to the beginning of San Tropez not quite getting to the vocals.

For the old Meddle pre (anti-static) to post RCM (solution + rinse)


and for the new Meddle


And lastly - just to look at the 1974 Japanese pressing vs the new Meddle pressing before any of this RCM business was done, because to me the Japanese pressing seemed of quite high quality and low noise -----




At this point I don't know what to say. For the clean Hank Jones record it seems the noise was clearly worse. The Hunky Dory didn't look much different. For the two Meddles it looked the same or slightly worse.

Things I'll do next:
Get new dedicated brushes, and not the Okki Nokki goathair. Have read up here on some but haven't made a decision. I'll take recommendations!

I have access to Type I water, which will have fewer silicates than the regular distilled water I am using. Maybe I'll use that for rinse.

Any ideas? Thanks for your time. I figure some of you people must document your work! Sorry if I've made errors of judgment in this long post.

 

Impressive. I usually clean them all when new then just play them. If I'm a few minutes in and think, hey this could use a quick spin, then clean it and play it again and it sounds much quieter.

 

I've been using my Okki Nokki for three and half years now with great success. I use the brush by Osage and never did like the Okki Nokki brush. I use AIVS one step Formula #6 which removes the need for a rinse step and works for my needs. I buy a lot of new records ( Music Matters, Analogue Productions, MFSL ) or used records in NM condition.

 

The best fluid I've found by far is Todd The Vinyl Junkie's Vinyl Zyme. The concentrate is very economical. Far better results and lower cost than AIVS #6, which was my previous go to for a one step cleaning.

 

This is some fun science... personally I don't want to loose the placebo effect

 

I am a scientist, and I will do more. It is pretty time consuming, though, so I have to give it up a while!

In addition to trying different solutions (thanks for the suggestions so far) I'll probably go further anti-static as well (prob a Milty). In terms of the method, I plan on sampling more than one quiet portion on the same side, pre- and post.

 

What I would like to see is an already cleaned record (wet-scrubbed/vacuumed like VPI) analyzed, and then have the same record ultrasonically cleaned (KLAudio, etc.) and analyzed again for comparison.

 

just curious if you have tried other cleaning solutions. I would suspect the Okki Nokki is doing its job if its pulling fluid off your vinyl.

I've been using L'Art du Son with good results. But sometimes I wonder how good it is on discs that dont improve after cleaning. Ultimately I write it off as a defect on the record.

 

But is comparing the silent "dead wax" between songs the best way to analyze effectiveness? Could it be possible that it's just naturally noisy vinyl and by cleaning it, you removed a layer of grime/oil that was previously covering it and making it less noticeable? This would be the opposite of grime in the music groove that was covering the information that you actually wanted to hear. Just an idea.

I finally got a VPI 16.5 last year and I also use the AVIS #6 & the enzyme soak. I keep meaning to do before/after needle drops, but I'm too lazy. For my unscientific testing, I would take an LP and pay attention to the noise/scratchiness/pops in one particular part of a song, make some notes, then clean it and compare. Based on my experiences, I would notice a significant reduction in extraneous noise. Getting a RCM opened up a whole new world to me! I bought some records that looked really beat up, and as long as they weren't damaged, they were suddenly quite listenable.

 

I actually have gotten the best results from an enzyme soak, vacuum, Spin Clean (amazing what comes out) vacuum, new inner sleeve.

I'm using the TTVJ fluid as a one step cleaner before play. It's amazing how quiet my albums are. Time consuming? Yes, but worth it.

 

I know there are millions of posts about personal RCM methods, but might as well throw mine in too!

3 min soak with AIVS Enzymatic Formula -> vacuum -> AIVS #6 cleaner (using VPI brush) -> vacuum -> lab water rinse (using MOFI pad) -> vacuum.

let cool, then eat!

 

I use L'Art du Son and it works well for me. I know that my VPI RCM has improved my record collection. I had some records that I couldn't listen to because of the noise. I wrote those records off as a loss. After cleaning them with the RCM the noise was virtually gone.

 

Its has improved my records tremendously and given me piece of mind. I wonder though, how the other enzyme cleaners stack up or the Tergitol method outlined by the US Library of Congress. I wont be changing the cleaner for something else until I can be convinced something is better.

 

L'art du son with my okki nokki. No complaints.

 

You guys are more adventurous than I am. There are way too many L'Art Du Son postings with users experiencing mold/growth issues.

 

Sure L'Art Du Son is organic. I store my mix in a closet with no light in a dark brown bottle. There is never any mold on records treated with L'art.

 

2 horsepower mini wet vac, lint free towels and Pheonix cleaner. Brush every side and stylus brush. Perfect for me

 

never experienced mold from it. The only time I did see something is when a bottle of the concentrate sat for too long and it started to coagulate. Simply shaking the bottle brought it back to normal.

 

I've done the same thing! These are from Happy Trails (Side 1) by Quicksilver Messenger Service:
https://www.discogs.com/Quicksilver-Messenger-Service-Happy-Trails/release/3043498
Not the best example, b/c there aren't very many silent passages (all the songs kind of flow together).

I'm using a Vibrato 69Hz Ultrasonic Tank with a DIY rotation device and RODI water. I made these FLAC files when I first got the unit, and didn't have my process refined yet. Namely, I was using a 7RPM motor (way too fast) and didn't have the right mixture (I've since included Triton-X as a surficant -which made a huge difference.)

The before capture is on top, after on the bottom (all images.) I have to admit, I don't see much difference. I thought I could detect a small audible difference, but that was likely psychological. I need to do another test, perhaps with a better record choice.

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I have noticed that with some records, with a lot of surface noise, that no amount of cleaning helps. These are almost always grungy used records, and likely they have just been played to death.

Ah, I just found another record:
https://www.discogs.com/The-Aynsley-Dunbar-Retaliation-Doctor-Dunbars-Prescription/release/3859466

This one does show some differences (outlined). This record was in very rough shape to begin with. It's better, but still only good/good+.
upload imagem

 

Maybe I'm a simple minded scientist, but isn't the best indication, besides listening, the stylus itself? If there is gunk in the grooves the stylus will collect some of it on itself. When I use a RCM on a record that is transferring some gunk to the stylus, the next play is generally clean. There are records that have such ingrained gunk that it requires several cleanings to get a clean stylus after playing a side. Even if the gunk had no sonic effect it is certainly shortening the life of the stylus through friction.

 

Im really glad you posted that. I've seen this gunk on the stylus after a good cleaning. It made me worry the stylus is cutting new grooves in the wax, but I've also seen in in the form of hair like fibers from a dull white/grey to black so your explanation makes sense.

 

Assuming your stylus isn't chipped and your set up is correct there is no way the stylus is cutting a new groove as it would sound like pure distortion. Yes some records have such ingrained gunk that multiple cleaning sessions are required. Some people also use the wood glue or ultrasonic cleaning methods.