DAC choice

Yes we like different things in audio, people have always done that, they will continue in doing that. A very large part is always subjective, there is no way around that, and it shouldn´t be.
To believe that it´s possible to objevtively use opinions is largely nonsense of course.
Personally I get very tired when people talk about synergy in audio, then I totally loose interest. There is no synergy in audio, this is also nonsense. The only synergy there is if we can´t use one component without also using the other; like we can´t a DAC without first using an ADC; or we can´t use a cartridge without an arm, and an arm is worthless without a cartridge. But to speak of the sum of the SQ as better than the parts has no logic.

 

We could go round and round on this so I've just highlighted the most pertinent part of your reply here.
One of the ways to "cheat" in DAC reviews is to listen using very good gear. The very good gear will expose things that you wouldn’t really notice so much with lesser gear.


I'm inclined though to ask if you think the KL album is any good because you strike me you might get up close to a Picasso and be looking for uneven brush strokes. I admire your attention to detail but both the form you use and the detail you extract are close to meaningless for me.

 

Good gear can make differences more obvious. Good gear can make recording and mixing choices easier and more consistent. Studios should have a selection of good gear that helps them make better recordings and avoid mistakes and helps them hear what they need to hear to make their job easier. Good gear also makes hearing differences between DACs easier. Good gear also makes it easier to dissect a mix or mastering. I don't consider using good gear to actually be cheating. I consider the good gear to be a smart use that helps me find what I'm after in gear, music, and recordings.

This isn't about hip-hop appreciation. The music side of this forum would be a better place for that type of discussion. Though the music side of the forum can get into details and discussions about mixing and mastering that are detailed and involve critical listening and minutia.

The Kendrick Lamar CD is a critical listening test because I'm curious about what the DACs are doing and why it sounds so different on the Schiit multibit compared to other DACs. This level of critical listening to this recording has nothing to do with whether I appreciate the music or not. This sort of discovery and exploration may help me choose a different DAC or choose some other different gear to address it.

When I listen to music I like for enjoyment I don't dissect the recording. I listen to the music and just enjoy the sound quality that goes along with that. I've already done critical listening to my gear to get things the way I like them. So when it comes to music listening I don't have to worry about listening for that at that level because it has already been covered. I can just listen and enjoy.

 

Ok let's put this another way.

Let's say we take your DAC and replace my DAC with yours....or put your Dac in any decent system.....do you think the mix will far apart in a room the way you describe via headphones?

 

The mix should fall apart when listened to on a good speaker setup with the Schiit multibit DAC. Some of the QSound style effects could sound different or be perceived differently on speakers than headphones. In general, those QSound style effects should translate to both speakers and headphones.

I don't know how your DAC would sound in my headphone system. I've never heard the DAC and don't know what type of sound characteristics or it has. Difficult to speculate about a specific DAC without hearing.

 

Been listening to the Schiit Modi2 Multibit and the Schiit Vali2 amp a fair amount this weekend. Left them on Friday night and most of Saturday to help get them broken in. But they're still bright as heck. Even my vinyl rips which normally sound almost too warm are super bright and even harsh. I would say you pay for what you get but my Audigy RX card with Creative T40 speakers sounds superior (exception being the bass frequencies) and they were a fraction of the cost. Does a tube make that big of a difference? I ordered a JJ/Tesla tube just to try it and see.

 

Continuing my quest, I placed an order today for the iFi iDac2. Lot of reviews highlight its bass performance. Was going to get the iDSD micro but it has a few more features than I need, and the iFi folks themselves say if strictly for 2-channel, the iDac2 is the better choice. I may yet try a Bifrost 4490 if a nice example turns up used. I dig the look and choice of inputs, and schiit's exchange policy is great, but I doubt I'll see the Canada Customs fees back. Makes auditioning a slightly too expensive process.

 

It'll be a long wait.........

 

Synergy between components is absolutely a real thing. Unless you're suggesting that all gear sounds the same so there's no point in listening for differences.

 

It's the headphone amp and the HD600 that could sound bright if you're not used to it. It's not actually bright. The HD600 is neutral. The Schiit amps do tend a little to the bright side. The Vali 2 less so, which was a reason for suggesting it over their less expensive solid state amps. Tube rolling can/will make a difference. I don't know what tube to suggest. I don't own the amp. I've heard it, but don't know what tube was in it when I heard it.

Try the HD600 with other headphone amps that you have (anything with a headphone jack). Just to see how it sounds with other headphone amps. Try the Vali 2 and HD600 combo with other sources, like your turntable.

If the HD600 ends up being too bright there are other headphones that are less bright. Like the AudioQuest Nighthawk. The old version of the Nighthawk is currently on sale because a new black colored version is now out. So the old inventory is on sale. I don't consider the HD600 to be bright when well amped. I dislike brightness. If the HD600 was bright I wouldn't listen to it and wouldn't enjoy it.

 

Thanks for the great info, Ham! I was figuring it must be the amp as well. I've heard the JJ tubes are much warmer than the stock tube. Yes, plugged right into my Oppo 105D, The HD600s sound great. I need an adapter to plug them into my current T40 speakers to see how they sound. I'm sure I have one around here somewhere...

 

The JJ tube should be warmer. My old Schiit Lyr amp shipped with the 6BZ7 tubes that are likely the stock tube with the Vali 2. I quickly switched to the Gold Lion E88CC/6922 tubes in the Lyr. I can't even recall how the 6BZ7 tubes sounded in that amp.

My Cavalli amp had the JJ tubes as the stock tubes. It's a warm sounding tube in that amp. I am now using the Gold Lion E88CC/6922 tubes in that amp. The Gold Lion tubes are brighter than the JJ, but also more revealing. I like the Gold Lion tubes better, and I don't like brightness. So evidently Gold Lion tubes aren't too bright.

 

No it isn´t.

 

Yes it is. some gear pairs well with some gear and not so much with others. to deny that means you aren't listening properly.

 

You can certainly mismatch equipment especially amps with speakers.....I've done it. But really how you define the word synergy is the issue.....I think the core point is some separates really suit each other...whether synergy happens in it's specific meaning is a rather pointless debate it probably can't but it's a term that is used.

 

Such an erudite, thought provoking response! You sure won me over with that well-reasoned argument that flies in the face of what I've heard with my own ears. Sounds like you're the next Albert Einstein.

 

Also try the Vali 2 connected to the Oppo 105 to find out how much the DAC may be contributing to a sense of brightness. I don't consider the Modi Multibit to be bright at all. However, it does have a revealing treble but not hyped or boosted. I'd actually consider the Oppo 105 to be brighter and a less suitable match with headphone amps that may lean a little bit to the bright side.

If the Vali 2 continues to be too bright even after a tube change to the JJ tube then we'll have to figure out a different amp. An alternative amp at that price range that can drive the HD600 well is going to be tricky. Not a lot of choices.

A reason I suggested the Modi Multibit is because its ability to present ambiance and spatial qualities is exactly what I want to hear with vinyl and analog. It will let you hear those sorts of qualities in the recording better than other DACs, especially other $250 DACs. If you can get the needledrops to sound right with the multibit DAC then it will sound great on the Oppo and other DACs you'll use to play your needledrops. It's a DAC that will let you hear the effects of phase, the phono preamp, cartridge alignment, and things like that. Things you want to be able to hear when doing needledrop recordings. I also find it to be a very enjoyable DAC for music listening (I'm listening to Depeche Mode "Black Celebration" on CD right now and it sounds awesome and spatial on the multibit). I'd also experiment a little with interconnects between the Modi Multibit and the amp. Interconnects can make a slight difference with the Schiit multibit DACs. Differences that I don't notice with my other DACs. Perhaps there are some interconnects that can cause the Schiit multibit to sound brighter than I've experienced as their typical sound. The interconnects I've used with the DACs haven't made them sound bright or weaker in the bass.

 

I think most understand, that in the real world, those that state there is a synergy, are the ones that primarily need to explain why there is one. And this won´t be easy.

 

Yes, very true. If nothing else, the Schiit gear is revealing. Pops/clicks that weren't audible on my previous setup (either my computer or my car's system) are definitely 'there' now. So audible, I thought I forgot to use click repair. Flaws like slight channel bleed are there too. Which I guess is both good and bad. It'll take some time to get used to.

 

Different gear have different sounds, different voicings. Not all voicings sound good together, and some combinations sound better than others. Additionally certain gear will not have the requisite technicalities to properly drive other gear.

Was that so difficult?

 

There's a real world ?

 

That is just compensation, you compensate one weakness with another weakness. Synergy means that e.g. you combine two different components with a certain distortion, and the combined distortion will be less than each one´s.

 

Um, what? Where are you getting this definition of synergy? I have never heard anyone talk about gear synergy that way.

 

This is a common definition of synergy. You combine two things and the sum will be better than the 'things' separately.