Help diagnose tracking problem with Shure V15III + Jico VN35HE *

EDIT: The title should have said VN35HE.

I posted about the first stage of this problem in another thread a few months back, but it wasn't the right place for it, so with today's new information I'm making it a separate thread.

I have always wanted to try a Shure V15. Last summer I bought a used V15III on eBay. It came with an aftermarket stylus that to me looks like a JICO, possibly VN35E. I separately bought a brand new JICO VN35HE (non-SAS) stylus at turntableneedles.com.

I mounted the cartridge on a Technics SL-1200GAE. It played very nicely, but it would jump out of the groove at the slightest provocation (I have a record with a small hump to test for that) and failed to play ANY of the tracking tests on the HiFi News Test record without strong buzzing in both channels. I tried all reasonable VTF and antiskate settings. It behaved EXACTLY the same with both the included stylus and the brand new VN35HE I bought separately.

After posting this in the other thread, the prevailing opinion was that either the stylus was defective or the Technics tonearm was too heavy for it.

Today, I finally installed the Shure on a Pro-Ject Xtension 9 with a 9cc Evolution arm, that is definitely not too heavy for it (8.5g eff. mass). IT BEHAVES EXACTLY THE SAME ON THE PRO-JECT AS ON THE TECHNICS!

That eliminates the arm as the possible culprit.

So my questions are:

- Is the stylus realistically the only possible cause of this issue? Both styli that I have behave exactly the same, so both would have to be bad in the same way.

- Could the V15III body be defective in some way to cause this kind of mistracking? I can see visually nothing wrong with it and the stylus slides in smoothly and, as far as I can tell, snugly.

Buying another stylus only to find out it does not work either sounds really unappealing.

 

Send me a pm. I'll let you borrow a third stylus for sake of elimination.

 

Off hand before I look up anything... The Pro-Ject arm may be higher mass than the Technics. Both turntables have medium mass arms. The V-15 is a high compliance cartridge. The symptoms you describe sounds a lot like a cartridge compliance mismatch to the arm. Not all Styli of the same part number are exactly the same compliance. The combination should work, but .... it is possible just by a stroke of "bad luck" your stylus is of higher compliance with its range of manufactured tolerance.

It may be possible the bearings on the Technics arm are adjusted on the looser side within its manufacturer spec. I believe the problem you have is a worst case scenario of a mismatch, (arm bearing clearances on the high side and an extra high compliance stylus example) but all pieces not defective.

We could set up an identical Technics SL-1200 and a Shure V15 III Jico and perform normally, although the compliance range would still be on the borderline of acceptability for that turntable. (and this is exactly the problem I believe)

If you were to try the V-15 in a Dual 701, or 1229, the V-15 is perfectly matched to those arms. Many Duals were equipped with the V-15 from the factory.
I will look up the mass spec of your turntables when I get the chance.

 

Also possible on an afterthought, you may have a subsonic feedback issue. Especially if the compliance is just within range, this would exascerbate subsonic feedback.
Look for any physical wobble of the arm, or shaking, or subsonic woofer movement!

 

Thanks for the ideas.

The Technics SL-1200GAE arm effective mass is 12g. The Pro-Ject 9cc carbon arm is 8.5g. 8.5g should be fine with the V15, with a solid safety margin. At the minimum, I'd expect *some* improvement moving from the Technics to the Pro-Ject arm.

There is no unhealthy movement in the arm or woofer. While the V15 was still on the Technics, I tried the horizontal resonance test on the Hifi New test record and the stylus wobbled between 11-9 Hz, which I understand is not unreasonable.

 

Does the Jico have the dynamic stabilizer? With the stabilizer down add 0.5 grams of force. ie: for 1.25g at the tip, set the force at 1.75g.

 

Type III doesn't have the brush.

 

Mystery solved. Sort of.

I got another V15III with original SupertrackPlus on eBay. I installed it and it tracked like a dream! So I put the new stylus I bought as "Jico VN35HE" at turntableneedles.com into this new body and it did not track at all. So it was the stylus after all. I have posted pictures of the new stylus in another thread:
Looking for the Shure Cartridge experts for guidance!
and you can see that it does not quite look like the retail Jico stylus that tommytunes posted a picture of there also.

That leaves three options:

1. The new stylus I bought as "Jico VN35HE" is defective.
2. It is some cheap crap stylus that they sold me instead of the real thing.
3. It is a flawless Jico VN35HE and this stylus just does not work in the V15III body.

Which one is right?

 

I have just had a conversation with another member and he has also encountered potential tracking issue with a genuine Jico VN35HE in a V15III body.

So my ultimate question is: Has anyone run a non-SAS Jico V15III stylus through the tracking tests on a HiFi News (or some other) test record? What was the result? Short of that, tracking tests of the V15III with any aftermarket styli would be of interest.

 

V15iii with a unknown, possibly jico vn35e or he, and it tracked like a dream on a sl1200mk2. I now use it with sas and it too tracks well. No test records in my stable. I do use the little aux weight currently, heard it helps the sound.

The 1200 arm though is indeed medium mass, the shures like lower mass afaik but can work well despite.

Would love to have a gae some day, nice table!!

 

Success!

I have re-installed the V15III with the Japanese retail box VN35HE in a standard Technics headshell with two heavyish SS screws. Adjusted 1.5g VTF on the SL-1200GAE. It plays through the hump on my torture record without jumping and with no audible degradation. On the Hifi News test record, it plays all tracking tests with the exception of the most difficult (that nothing plays). On the next to most difficult, it has slight intermittent buzzing. So, slightly worse than the V15III with the original SuperTrackPlus stylus, but comparable to my next best tracker (Goldring 1042) and better than the rest of the cartridges I have.
The horizontal resonance frequency is in the neigborhood of 7-8Hz, slightly below optimal, which is not surprising with a 12g arm. I estimate the horizontal compliance somewhere around 25.

It sounds nice, but I have not done much listening yet. I want to put the other body on the Pro-Ject Xtension 9 as it is more compatible with high compliant cartridges.

So mystery finally solved. Had I bought the stylus directly from Japan in the first place, I could have saved myself a lot of aggro and expense.

 

I am happy this Jico brand stylus ( hopefully someday Jico will put a stop to the misuse of their brand name on aftermarket stylus ) basically passed the test for you. My Jico HE is night and day difference in sound compared the the EVG E stylus. I hope you enjoy the sound.

For The Fringe ( great tv show ),the Jico VN45HE has the brush along with a telescoped cantilever. The VN35HE has neither.