Would you pay $11,000 or more for speakers if the cabinet was made in China??

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Litejazz53, Feb 17, 2017.

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  1. PH416156

    PH416156 Alea Iacta Est

    Location:
    Europe
    Of course. I understand. Just like I had to buy a computer.
     
  2. Tim 2

    Tim 2 MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Your welcome, one of the great companies period. Great Italian craftsmanship thats built to last for generations and as musical as it gets.
     
    MaxxMaxx4 and PH416156 like this.
  3. ARCCJ

    ARCCJ Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    I did not peruse this entire thread but I see it being a case of manufacturers having components built in china _under their supervision_ as opposed to a purely chinese company building and selling components. The questionable quality of those offbrand chinese tube amps is proof of that--they ship from china, support is often nonexistent, and they look like something a hobbyist would build inside of readily available extruded aluminum cases. But there are well known companies not just in audio who can have products built under tight supervision in any country on the planet if they wanted to. As long as it is disclosed I do not see an issue.
     
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  4. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    How about a Gibson knock off Les Paul, would that work for you as well?
     
  5. frimleygreener

    frimleygreener "It 'a'int why...it just is"

    Location:
    united kingdom
    What's to say the Chinese product is not better crafted? Does one nation have a patent on quality?
     
  6. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    I agree with this post 100%, and he makes such a critical point, (Although the cabinet is made in China, it is made in a TAD factory in China. I think, for me, if the company making the loudspeaker has a factory in China and they manage the quality control, then I would be OK with it. If the company is contracting out the cabinet manufacture to a independent maker in China I would be less interested in owning them). Great post!:righton:
     
  7. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    Thanks so much for your compliment. I just believe if you are going to make your product in China, OWN IT, and disclose it.
     
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  8. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    It was interesting reading Mr. Craig Shumer's response to my initial post last night. I caught something in his post that brought back the past for me personally. He mentioned that his customer had a pair of the 6T's and the veneers lifted off and Aerial said that was not covered by their warranty, this actually happened to me many years ago. My memory is not the best, but I remember purchasing my 10T's MK II from the Nashville, TN Aerial dealer right before he went out of business, and I want to say the name of the company was Premier Audio, here in Nashville, TN. They were, and are still beautiful, Sontos Rosewood, his demo pair, and I also bought a pair of the model 5's as well. We loaded them up in the car and I was headed back to Memphis, where I lived then. The heads on the 10Ts are some sort of stone material called, and I hope I spell this correctly, Novalith?? These things feel like big stones, they are so very heavy. Right towards the end of my warranty period I was moving the speakers to a different room and had to pull the heads off to move them and noticed a few small tiny cracks in this Novalith material, nothing major, but small cracks non the less. I called Aerial about the cracks, which were on both heads in different places, and I was told this is very common, and to be expected, not to be alarmed, it would have no effect on the performance or stability of the head. My response, yes, but they have cracks! Mr. Kelly's response was, we can move the drivers to new Novalith heads, but I want to say the cost I was quoted was above $1,000.00 per head to make that replacement. Because the cracks were small, and he was not going to help me, I just let it go, but after reading Mr. Shumer's post, I feel like this is something that should have been considered a manufacturing defect and they should have helped me and replaced these heads at no charge, especially when I was told this is a common occurrence and unfortunately the "nature of the product." I was also told these heads are very thick and the surface cracks would not affect the sound, which I'm sure they have not, but again, they certainly are there and someone buying them would not appreciate small cracks in the heads of my speakers, however they were never replaced under warranty. Personally, I cannot imagine Aerial not taking care of veneers that are lifting off a speaker, how in the world could that not be covered under the manufacturing defect guideline? If wood falling off a speaker and heads on my speaker cracking are not considered items to be covered under a standard warranty, what in the world would be? I could imagine that veneer lifting off a speaker would be a total loss, so it would indeed be terribly expensive to address this problem. I would think the speaker would be a total loss. Reading his post on the customer with the veneer lift off just brought back unpleasant memories of my experience with my warranty or lack of warranty, but hey, I love my 10Ts, and I have tried to find something I like better, but the sound and those Danish Rosewood cabinets and finish are just tough to beat. I put a call in to Mr. Kelly a few years back and just asked what improvements I could expect if I bit the bullet and purchased the 7T's over my 10T's and he just did not respond to my inquiry. :targettiphat:
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  9. slovell

    slovell Retired Mudshark

    Location:
    Chesnee, SC, USA
    No. I couldn't/wouldn't afford $11k speakers anyway.
     
  10. Blair G.

    Blair G. Senior Member

    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    I think for many of us it's not a quality issue. The Chinese gear I own (Denon universal player), or have auditioned at home (KEF, Hegel etc.) were beautifully built.

    It's a cost issue.
    Supposedly building offshore creates savings due to lower wages, economies of scale, or what not.

    But none those "savings" appear to be passed on to the consumer.
    Nothing says they need to pass on these savings, business is business, but all things being equal I prefer to buy something that supports my economy.
     
  11. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    The last sentence in your post is so true, if the manufacturer passes no savings to the customer, and in fact raises his prices on the item, my gosh, what does that say?
     
  12. Standingstones

    Standingstones Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Central PA
    My take is: if you have a problem with possible Chinese involvement, buy elsewhere. I own numerous pairs of speakers from Opera Loudspeakers, a company in Italy. Everything is based in Italy or Europe. The speakers are fantastic and I don't regret ever buying them.
     
    PH416156 likes this.
  13. gkella

    gkella Glen Kellaway From The Basement

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I have been a big supporter of Usher audio products.
    They are manufactured in Taiwan.
    the cabinetry is outstanding.Absolutely gorgeous and top quality.
    I owned the CP 8571 series.
    Weighing in at 177 lbs. each.
    Retail is anywhere from 11,000.00 to 14,000.00.
    Reviews compare them to other speakers in the 25,000.00 range.
    Unfortunately I recently moved into a condo and they were just too large for my new music roo.
    Incredible speakers.
     
    inperson likes this.
  14. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    What a strange thing to write. It's almost like the '50s, '60s, '70s and '80s never happened (it's that, or a lot of people in this thread were born yesterday). The Chinese don't have a corner on the knock-off business. Italians were knocking off fake Rolex, Omega, Patek Phillipe, Breguet and many other high-end wristwatches for years before the Chinese got into that game. The Indians were knocking off everything in sight too - Gucci, Hermes, select items from most of the LVMH lines, and you-name-it - for years and years. There are plenty of Italians, Indians and Chinese in the fake/clone/knock-off business right now, so I think people need to really get off their high horses about mainland China.

    Hang out in Vatican City, or London or Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, Rome or Barcelona for half a day. Take a good, long, hard look at the designer handbag knock-offs being flogged by street sellers. Not a Chinese label in sight, not a Chinese origin in sight. The handbags and silks are all knocked off in India and Pakistan. Open your eyes.

    Just like in Italy for years and years now (although they're not yet quite as well developed and characteristically western as the products from Italy), the Chinese are beginning to develop terrific home-grown brands of audio gear. They have ears, brains, an innate love of music like the rest of us, and a population of 1.4 billion from which to draw talent. Does anybody seriously think the mainland Chinese aren't soon going to be producing a lot of stellar, home grown, highly competitive products for audiophiles everywhere to consider and audition? I think it's inadvisable to think otherwise. The Chinese domestic, high end audio gear makers will have precisely the same difficulty convincing their own people about the quality of their products that many domestic makers have had in other countries when they first tried to get into industries arelady well established and dominated by foreign makers.

    I have always preferred Canadian, U.S., British, French, German, Italian and Japanese products, though not always necessarily in that order. That's the audio gear world in which I matured. I think that great designers, engineers, technicians and craftspeople from those countries continue to produce the highest quality audio gear in the world (with very large tip of the hat to brilliance of a Scandinavian supply chain from which we get SEAS, Scanspeak and other products). But there is nothing whatsoever stopping the Chinese from creating great designs and engineering and then producing the resulting products (along with all the other crap produced in China until the working classes over there pound away long enough at wage and opportunity inequities until such time as their economy and social structure is just as expensive as the ones in the West. Anybody who thinks that won't happen, and in our lifetimes to boot, is closing his eyes to the history of such things for the past 5oo years or so.

    In the '50s and well into the '60s, my friends and I (and our parents) laughed at "Japanese junk" in the form of lame, semi-working, barely competent industrial products and electronics coming from Japan, post-WWII, as western companies began experimenting with Japanese manufacturing and as Japanese companies and innovators began recovering from WWII. Now, Japan is widely seen as a bastion of quality and attention to detail and all sorts of other good things. Nikon DSLR camera hounds get all bent out of shape if Nikon decides to produce a new, high-end DSLR body in Thailand or China or indeed any place other than Japan. Within easy living memory, it sure as heck wasn't always like that! So China will follow once they've wrung most of the cheap labour practices and rapacious business practices out of the place. The rise of a loudmouthed, opinionated, educated, self-possessed and influential middle class in China is taking place. Remind you of anything? Western audio gear makers will do well to realize that and prepare for more serious competition from such an obvious direction. Then again, a rising middle class in China makes an ideal target for western product makers too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  15. frimleygreener

    frimleygreener "It 'a'int why...it just is"

    Location:
    united kingdom
    I am still a tad perplexed as to why China is being singled out: I fully understand the desire to support a "home" economy, but if that were the sole rationale, why are goods manufactured in countries aside from China still on the shopping list? I have an American turntable...the fact it was not manufactured in England matters not one iota..I bought it for its excellence: it works wonderfully with British Amplification and a Japanese torn arm partnered with cartridges sourced from various countries. Can anybody name a CD player or CD transport that is built from native only components in America or Europe?
     
  16. Diamond Dog

    Diamond Dog Cautionary Example

    Speaker coverings aren't the only veneer peeling away in this thread.

    D.D.
     
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  17. Juan Matus

    Juan Matus Reformed Audiophile

    General Gao's chicken. Made in China or USA?
     
  18. Music1212

    Music1212 Forum Resident

  19. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Senior Member

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    Are you buying a country or are you buying speakers?

    A tenant of capitalism is 'means of production goes to the least expensive place or country'. You don't build where the cost of production is high unless you are selling premium products at a premium price - and expect to stay in business.

    While the price of the components for anything may sound fairly inexpensive it doesn't include the R&D as well as additional costs which usually are pretty steep such as salaries, technology, rent, benefits, etc. etc.

    If you are so outraged about buying foreign made/manufactured/assembled products you're s hit up a creek without a paddle. Almost everything is globally sourced nowadays including cars and audio and almost everything else.

    Get over it!!

    Ask questions where the product is made before purchase. If you don't like the answer move on.
     
  20. formu_la

    formu_la I'm not a robot

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Has nothing to do with nation. The answer is - communism. If you ever lived in communist society, you would understand about correlation between quality and political/economical structure.
    P.S. Also read post #26. Very educating.
     
  21. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    The only one I can think of is the awesome T+A Elektroakustik PDP 3000 HV SACD/CD player. The disc transport is designed by T+A and manufactured in-house. A transport to compete with the mighty Esoteric.
     
  22. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I was very interested in Aerial speakers five or so years ago. But they always seemed a bit out of my price range even when found used. I ended up eventually buying speakers from Jim Salk and couldn't be happier. Looking at the current version of the Aerial 7T the cabinet doesn't really impress me for a $12k speaker. If I was going to spend $8-12k for speakers (which I wont be ;)) they'd be either the Salk Soundscape 8 ($9k) or the Exotica 3 ($13k). There is no question that the cabinets of all Salk speakers are handmade in Michigan to buyers veneer and finish choices.
     
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  23. Jeff57

    Jeff57 Senior Member

    I'm in Canada and am happy to pay a premium to support Canadian craftsmen. I did just that when buying my 100% Canadian made Coincident Super Eclipse III's.
    I would not even consider a product that is made in China.
     
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  24. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    It depends on the watch - the Swatch group uses ETA movements which are Swiss. Now they use off the shelf movements not a designed from the ground up sort of thing but at least when you buy an affordable Swatch or Tissot you get a movement made by them. They're not out buying Chinese movements. In watches I care less about this since Japanese movements are very good anyway. Of course the watch zealots don't like makers who merely BUY ETA or other movements and stick them in their own watches and charge high prices - they prefer at least a midrange watch like Rolex who design and build the entire watch including movement in house. But Rolex is what $5k+.

    The discussion wasn't about Apple and I have no problem with companies who state that something is designed in the US and made in China. What I care about is companies who imply it's all made in the USA and it isn't. For amplifiers the heart of the thing are the transformers and caps. Where are those two things made. If they buy the transformers and caps from China - that is effectively the "movement."

    It's one of the reasons I happen to be a big fan of Audio Note. I can buy a $1,000US speaker that IMO sounds better than the Chinese made KEF LS-50. I have the KEF so I know. The AX Two is entirely made in Denmark using Danish woofers and tweeters, and hand built there too. It's a bit bigger than the KEF too. It gets shipped overseas too to the US and AN somehow manages to sell it for $500 less than the KEF. Granted there isn't a massive marketing thing to the AX Two which is probably why it's been selling for 17 straight years and no one has heard about it. But the notion it has to come out of China to keep costs down or to compete just isn't true IMO.
     
  25. Raffy Raff

    Raffy Raff Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hawaii
    Regardless of which way you slice it, an $11,000 speaker is a luxury good. Most people don't spend anywhere near that kind of money on their entire hifi, much less one pair of speakers. People spending that kind of money on speakers aren't just buying a commodity, they are buying into heritage, exclusivity, and quality, perceived or real. Ariel (and other manufacturers) know this, and that is why they won't trumpet that their products are made in China, a country that in recent history has not had a heritage of building quality hi-end audio products (in fact, it is the opposite). Couple that with geo-political issues, like pollution, sweatshop/slave labor, etc., and you can see why, unless shopping purely on price, the Chinese (or Indian, or Malaysian, etc.)-made product is facing an uphill battle.

    Personally, I probably would not pay that kind of money for a Chinese-made speaker; at that price, I can still purchase great-sounding products that suit my tastes and sensibilities and aren't made in China.
     
    Litejazz53 likes this.
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