Room Set Up / Upgrade Advice

How's it going, all?

I'm ready to upgrade my speaker set up to the B & W 803d3s with a Macintosh Mc452/C52 amp set up. I want to make one investment for the rest of my life and be set. But I am reluctant to do so right now because I have no ideal room to set it up in. As my system stands now, it's set up as good as possible in my living room which doubles as my TV room. The speakers are about 7 feet apart and I my couch is about 6-7 feet away, pretty much forming a triangle, but up against a wall. The speakers are not set up with similar surroundings either. I have a small office I could *maybe* convert into a listening room, but it's far from ideal. I've honestly started to consider moving so that I can have an idea listening room for my ideal system.

I guess I have a couple questions. What's the smallest room you could set up for listening. I assume with something too small you'd have sounds bouncing off all the walls. Second, would it be advisable to just hold off until I have the right set up. Problem is, I'd need to move to do so. Granted I only rent, but I do like my place. Thing is, I find myself not listening to as much music bc I'm not a fan of my set up and I'm a bit worn out on my speakers. Even though they are quite nice, (B&W CM9) I'm not getting the fidelity I want on my vintage jazz LPS. (I do realize some of this is likely due to the compromised set up.

Anyhow, just looking for some takes on this, and I've gone over and over it in my head and am reluctant to pull the trigger on such a high end system in this situation.

 

I really do think it's true, the most important component is the room. That makes California -- especially the Bay Area -- tough for having a high-end system unless your housing budget is very large. We've moved around a lot, and the best rooms I had for audio were in the southeast: North Carolina and Florida. Both have real estate cheaper, and room sizes larger, than what I've seen in California and here in Portland.

I think you're right to hesitate about large floor-standing speakers unless you can get a good-sized room, maybe 13 x 16 x 8 or so. Large speakers in a small room are a tough fit.

No one can say what is right for you -- but you. Fortunately, in your area, dealers abound, and they might (should) be willing to demo stuff and later let you a few items at home. That will tell you more than you can find out from others' advice, including mine. You may find another pair of smaller speakers that work in your present room, maybe with a subwoofer. (Though setting up a sub right is hardly trivial.)

I feel for you! My wife wants to move us to California, and that will not be good for listening.

Good luck!

 

Thanks, man. Yeah. I have floor standers now, but I can tell I'm not getting the most out of them, so upgrading to bigger, nicer floor standers might seem imprudent right now.

 

I'm with @Mike-48 the room is such a vital component that throwing more money at gear at this point doesn't seem like it will fix your unhappiness with you current equipment. The room is one of those things that's not terribly easy or fun but when you do address it most people wonder why they ever waited so long.
While a bigger room can be better, don't let that be the hang up. I've always had my main stereo in small rooms (under say 200 sq ft) and was able to utilize a small office in my current home with a near field setup, took loads of measurements, and then treated the room. It's the best sounding from I've ever had a setup in. One thing to look out for should you go that route is driver integration can get tricky at close distances. In general in small rooms, everything matters just a little bit more due to how close you are to the speakers and room boundaries.
Good luck in your efforts of either tackling that home office, finding a new place, or tweaking the room you're currently in.

 

The key with multi driver speakers is sitting far enough away for them to integrate. Your speaker maker should be able to tell you what that distance is.

After that it's a question of flexibility in your room. Can you move the speakers and listening chair around or are you restricted for practical reasons? Can you add room treatment (bass traps etc.)?

If 'no' to these questions the only other solution is some sort of electronic processor - an equaliser or digital signal processor. If you are an analogue lover you may not want to go down this road on principle but I think if you can suspend that thinking it would be worth checking out - something like one of the MiniDSP.

 

And I'm with @wgb113 on the room. Lots of good info on how to get good sound in bad rooms. The Decware site is where I found the most useful information for my near-perfect square,small (12x12x8) room.
The references to proper driver integration is another point I agree with. My experience is monitors or two-way towers are ok. Trying to get the best sound from towers with 3 or 4 drivers is p pretty much impossible when you can get no more than 7-8 feet distance between speakers and ears.

And then there are room treatments...

 

I just moved from one large room to another. My back almost did not survive the move as lots of stuff had to be moved out of the new room. The old room was 16x27 with speakers on the short wall and seating about half way back. There was a sloped ceiling, large glass doors on one side and a large opening opposite the glass doors. Furniture was too close to the speakers, there was a masonry shelf behind the speakers so the back wall was not flat and a large glass coffee table in front of the couch. Essentially, an acoustically asymmetrical setup with reflections in bad places which could not be closed off.

The new location is a converted garage about 24' square with a flat 8' ceiling. What an improvement it is. I had wanted to use that room for years but a noisy HVAC system kept me out of there. That was fixed about 2 years ago.

The room is very important. If it is not the right room for the speakers the result will be disappointing. In a small room go with some good stand mounts like the LS50 or something else of that caliber. The small room will provide "room gain" and help the low end. Tower speakers, especially B&W (mine are 683 S2) need space to breathe. I would say the room and speakers are an order of magnitude more important than electronics.

From experience I know having seating very close to the back wall produces an undesirable reflection. From what I can glean, the OP has a really small room, perhaps only 8' or 9' across.

 

Just to echo what @Ron Scubadiver said - addressing the room for me was as big an impact to the sound of my system as changing out what component typically colors the sound the most - speakers. Having a dedicated space where I could choose both listener and speaker placement as well as being able to acoustically treat it made it sound like I had just swapped for another pair of speakers that were much more accurate and resolving. It was like that moment when you finally hit upon that pair of speakers that exposed your favorite recordings for what they are...warts and all.

 

I think it's worth saying that acoustic treatment can help make a bad room better. In my experience, it's needed most when the room has a low ceiling, is well sealed, is highly reflective, or is small. This is not a panacea, but it helps.

 

Thanks for all the tips and advice. To clarify, I have my system set up in a living room with couches and a 60 inch TV. The TV kinda has to go where it is—and I had this et up years ago before I got into vinyl at all. So I've worked around things. Right now I have my cm9 towers set up about 6-7 feet apart with me on a couch about 6-7 feet away. The speakers are kinds floating in the middle of the one about 2 1/2 feet from a stone wall/fireplace and one about 3 feet from a glass door with a curtain over it. It is "fine," but I really want an ideal set up and don't know how to get it with this room. I'd need to take the TV out but there's no other room in which I could put it. Basically I'm stuck. My office is much smaller but if I were to move everything out of there it *might*work, but honestly I think it's kinda too small. I'm starting to look into new places to live. Sounds ridic, but I've reached a dead end.

 

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Here's what I'm working with. Can't get the image to insert.

 

by acoustic treatment, you guys mean like things on the walls to absorb sound...like egg crates or something?

 

That's s tough room - do you use the fireplace?

As for the acoustic treatments, there are many types but steer clear of eggcrates - they do nothing. I was able to DIY soffit traps around my room's ceiling and then installed floor-to-ceiling "superchunk" traps in the front corners.

 

By acoustic treatments, I mean mainly bass traps in the corners (and maybe on front or rear wall), and diffusion or absorption or combination panels at the sidewall first reflection points. I do not use nor do I recommend foam, though I used it in the past. Foam is not as good an absorber as fiberglass panels, it doesn't absorb over as wide a frequency range, and it deteriorates with age and crumbles into your room.

RPG, ASC, Vicoustic, Real Traps, and GIK Acoustics are prime sources for this sort of thing. If you want to learn more, you can Google them or look at TAS or Stereophile recommended components. Also, AudioCircle has both an Acoustic Circle and a manufacturer's circle for GIK. My opinion is that while you can hardly have too much acoustic treatment, you can have too much absorption, which will deaden the room excessively. Combination products (of absorption and diffusion) can be used to avoid that.

 

I don't use the fireplace but the mantle (?) thing comes out a foot and a half.

 

I'd say 12X12 is the minimum. I have no problems with my floorstanders + a 12¨ sub in my 12X13 living room (treated, but no bass traps-don't need them) Your living room looks OK but if you really crave that dedicated listening room you'd better concentrate on moving first. What exactly is dissatisfying about your rig ?

 

The television is a problem if it reflects sound. You could solve that by placing some mobile absorbent panel in front of it when listening (some cover them with a duvet for example). If that curved wall is brick, that too will reflect sound but in all directions so may not be major problem.

Such a complicated room would really need expert advice. GIK Acoustics offer free advice in the hope that you buy their products.

Generally it helps to have symmetry for the speakers. That means both are the same distance from similar type of walls and your chair. For example having that chair by the right speaker with nothing near the left one will unbalance the sound. If that is not possible you could move the speakers around individually until they sound similar, listening to the same sound through each speaker separately. Having a coffee table between you and the speakers is not considered good practice as sound can reflect off it to your ears.

I think the easy solution is the MiniDSP. Not ideal or perfect but the best in these circumstances.