Opinions on Primaluna and Ayon amplifiers

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by DaleClark, Feb 26, 2017.

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  1. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Hello, I am new to the forum. I have been reading for many years. Have posted on Audiogon for many years. Right now I am looking at purchasing a tube power amp (possibly integrated) to go with my ZU Omen Defs. I did some photo work for ZU (Sean) 4 years back and decided to keep the speakers. They sound wonderful with the receivers and amps (consumer grade) that I have thrown at them.

    I have heard many tube amps. I would like to keep my budget around $3500. I am not a fan of Jolida, Rogue, Vincent. I do like the Quicksilver Mid Monos and Decware (I've only heard the 2 watt zen). However, the two that stand out are the Primluna Prologue/Dialog series and Ayon Scorpio (integrated) series. The PL's I can stay way under my budget. The Ayon right at my budget buying thru USA Tubes Audiogon listings (new in box, they have 200 to sell). I travel a lot. The USA Tube and Upscale audio people were extremely nice and helpful.

    My gut is leaning toward the Primalunas. Just curious about anyone's experiences with the two brands? I'm not interested in buying used...period. Plus I prefer auto bias.
     
  2. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    I owned the Primaluna Prologue Four power amp for a brief period. My take on it was it sounded like a decent solid state amp. It had never exhibited any of the qualities I heard in the tube amp it replaced. If you're looking for a smooth, syrupy tube sound, the Prologue Four isn't it. In my view it was just an average sounding amp.

    And I did do some tube rolling. Both the input tubes and the output tubes. It didn't matter to my ears. This was mine:
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Bachtoven

    Bachtoven Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    I love my PrimaLuna Premium HP. It sounds plenty tube-like! Although it has about half the wattage of my previous Pass Labs INT 150, it has superior sound to my ears and is plenty powerful enough to drive my DALI speakers.

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Standingstones

    Standingstones Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Central PA
    If I were to buy a PrimaLuna amplifier I would go for one that outputs 70wpc. I had one that was 35wpc and I found it ran out of gas on loud passages.
     
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  5. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Good info. My Zu's are 101db. The PLs I listened to had the Tube sound I was looking for. The KT88 versions sounded a bit more modern. The el34s sounded smooth as silk. For my taste, the MACs I have heard sound "too Tuby" for my taste. The primas and the Ayon has the balance that I prefer.
     
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  6. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Are you using the stock PL tubes?
     
  7. GoldprintAudio

    GoldprintAudio Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lexington, NC
    I've traded for several pieces of PrimaLuna gear over the past few years and they always seemed to be pretty nice in sound.

    With the minimal power requirements needed for you Zu's, you could also look at something like the Leben CS-300F or CS-300XS. Or for a nice full Class A solid state integrated, I would imagine the Sugden A21SE would sound fantastic with the Zu's.
     
    Rolltide likes this.
  8. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra Active Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
    I find the whizzers in Zu's to be a little shouty with more hi-fi sounding tube amps. I've run both class A and push/ pulls, and always go back to warmer tubes like the EL34 or 6CA7.

    But I know most of these amps come with KT88's or KT120's to make power numbers, so it may be tough to gauge just how good one of them actually sounds in your system without having some more tubes on hand (EH 6CA7's are cheap, and some of the best sounding power tubes I've heard in new production).
     
  9. Bachtoven

    Bachtoven Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    Yes. When it's time to retube, I might go for KT 120s or 150s....I just hope I don't lose the EL34's magical midrange!
     
  10. T'mershi Duween

    T'mershi Duween Forum Resident

    Location:
    Y'allywood
    I've got the PrimaLuna Prologue Premium Integrated. Got it from Upscale Audio over 3 years ago. I love mine! Rolled in NOS tubes and this thing responded well. Lush and articulate. It;s definitely a good match for my Tekton Pendragons.

    I've been using it heavily since I got it. Not one problem or issue. Every once in a while it will blow a fuse on start up, but that's what they're there for, right?

    They are very high quality amplifiers. I will not part with mine!
     
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  11. octaneTom

    octaneTom Man of Leisure

    I've been running a Primaluna Prologue One for around 4 years now — bought is used on Audiogon. I absolutely love it - great build quality, awesome sound...I'm a huge fan of EL34 amps. Also a huge fan of the auto-bias, makes life pretty simple.

    I've got a bunch of vintage tubes now that I've picked up over the years and I think it sounds even better than when I got it with the stock tubes.

    35 watts is driving my C7s pretty nicely.
     
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  12. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    The great thing about the Pl Adaptive Auto Bias feature is using pretty much any tube. I'm thinking of ordering a set of EL34 tubes to try as well and compare to the KT88's. I have updated ZU Tweeters (I love the fact ZU sells updated drivers) and the slight "sizzle" that I could barely hear on the original tweeters is now much softer. Plus, now that I am in a house vs condo, I can drive my ZU's at higher volumes. So basically, I believe the ZU's did not get fully broken in until we moved into our house.
     
  13. 6l6klipsch

    6l6klipsch Forum Resident

    Location:
    WI
    Also consider Raven Audio if you haven't already :righton:.
     
  14. Threshold

    Threshold Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Manchester NH
    I'd also look at the Conrad Johnson CAV-45.
     
  15. roboss38

    roboss38 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Clovis, CA U.S.A.
    Since Primaluna came on the scene over a decade ago, I've owned a Primaluna Prologue 2 integrated (still in second system), Prologue 3 pre-amp, Prologue 5 power amp, Prologue 7 monoblocks, and a Dialogue Premium integrated. All Primaluna gear is extremely well built, sounds good, and is a good value. I've also owned McIntosh (vintage C20 and C22 pre-amps), Rogue Audio (Stereo 100 amp), and Audio Research (Reference 5SE pre-amp and Reference 75 amp) tube gear. All great gear which produced beautiful music.

    Two years ago, I bought a Line Magnectic 518IA from Taylor at Goldprint Audio, and I've stopped thinking about gear. I just play music, tap my toes, and smile.

    In my opinion, I would buy this as it's a great value and will make your Zu's sing.

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/line-magnetic-518ia-annapolis-md.638837/
     
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  16. Slippers-on

    Slippers-on Forum Resident

    Location:
    St.Louis Mo.
    Well...my experience with ZU Omen Defs....those things had the supper tweeter and very loud. This was a few years ago when they where the craze hot item. Not a lot of warmth. The Prima Luna has the character of a warm leaning amp and can even be warmer depending on how you voice it with tubes and interconnects. If you'd want my opinion.....the Omen Defs at 101db and the PrimaLuna could be a match made in heaven!

    Can I as why no Jolida, Rogue, Vincent? All three are fine amps in my opinion.
     
  17. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Hi

    I've listened to all three. Jolida has some nice equipment. However, I don't feel musically involved with the overall sound two my two preferences, again just one listen. The rogue Cronus ( used at UA) just did not excite me. Again, just one listen. The Vincent's I've heard ( 2 of them) all sound too "solid state" in a Peachtree kind of way.

    I could buy a PL or Ayon and they have no synergy with my system or room. That is one point on the side of PL. I've heard good things all over the various forms about their returns where I have seen a few "give you a fight" when trying to return with USATA.
     
  18. AmericanHIFI

    AmericanHIFI Long live analog (and current digital).

    Location:
    California
    Prima Lunas are excellent amps. An ex- Goldmund engineer is at the helm of the design team.
    Patented auto biasing I believe.
     
  19. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Your speakers are easy to drive. IME Single Ended easily sounds better than Push Pull amplifiers dollar for dollar. My dealer carries Prima Luna. Bring home the Audio Note OTO SE or Phono version if you have a turntable. The OTO (and all AN amps) is autobias.

    IMO nothing I've heard from Prima Luna sounds as good as the OTO. There is a reason it has been selling for 25 years! Further advantage is that the tubes last much longer than EL34s and are generally a lot cheaper to replace. I've had my OTO since 2003.

    Your speakers give you the advantage of getting into SET/SEP amplifiers and IMO that's what you should be trying for.

    And lastly, resale value. All the Chinese stuff in ten years you'll be lucky to get half what you paid for it. Prima Luna is Chinese. I can sell my 2003 OTO today for more (rather a lot more) than I paid for it back then. So when you start looking at prices factor in the overall net cost(or in my case a gain). Forum chatter is all well and good but to take a page from the capitalist playbook the "market" decides what is ultimately good or not. Sure some stuff increases in value due to nostalgia like certain LS-3/5a or wartime McIntosh tube amps from 40+ years ago. However relatively modern gear tends to drop like a stone on the second hand market. SS amplifiers especially. The aforementioned Sugden A21 holds up well because it is "Single Ended Class A" so there is a good chance that someone who bought one in 1991 for ~$1700 will still get around $1700 today because it is hand made in England using REAL parts and people respond to hand craftsmanship. I sold my Audio Note J/Spe speakers in December for 17% more than I paid back in 2003/4. And it was Black (a colour most people today hate).

    I have nothing against Prima Luna mind you - it's just that push pull tube amps IMO have a certain sonic ability and if you listen to something like my 219IA or the OTO for say a month solid and then you go back to one of those PP EL34/KT88 amps from LM/Prima Luna/Ayon/Audio Space/Jolida/ASL/Rogue you may really be put off by them quickly. It's not so easy to hear in an A/B session but IMO and IME these PP amps sound practically broken compared to a really good SET amplifier.

    And if you don't like my AN suggestion (I am a biased owner after all) then look to makers who make BOTH PP amps AND SET amps - in almost every case the SET amp will be their flagship line and will sound better.

    Having said all that - buy from only the pool of gear you can directly audition.
     
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  20. Slippers-on

    Slippers-on Forum Resident

    Location:
    St.Louis Mo.
    Vincent too SS? Thats a first I've heard that, and I know quite a few Vincent owners. How much time have you spent with Vincent/ Hybrids?

    Marantz is SS...does it sound too SS? Rotel is SS does it sound too SS? What do you mean by too SS? Parasound is SS does it sound too SS? Some gear sounds to sterile...totally clean and cold. Is that what you mean?

    I've Vincent separates....Both the amp and preamp are hybrids. Gone head to head with Conrad Johnson gear and the Vincent was just as tube/warm sounding as the Conrad Johnson, only with more slam. Gone head to head with Rotel and much more romance and emotion than Rotel which it completely out classed.

    I've heard a match up once a few years ago at one of the local audio shops. They had a Peachtree integrated amp, dont know which one, but they had it driving a pair of Klipsh Palladium P17-B stand mount speakers....nothing SS about that sound.

    I've listen to Rogue.....once the Power tubes where changed that joker was very musical.

    I've listen to Leben audio speakers that had a cold sound to it....after we tube rolled.... it was very romantic.

    The best part about tubes/Hybrids is you can change tubes and warm it up....or make it bright and cold sounding if that's your thing. All you have to do is get familiar with the different type of tubes available. Once you do....you are on your way.
     
  21. Standingstones

    Standingstones Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Central PA
    Try to avoid listening to all this 'my amplifier is better than your amplifier' nonsense. If you like what you see with the PrimaLuna line, then purchase that. Most posters here will say I own such and such equipment, buy that. I would rather read someone who picked out 3 or 4 brands to recommend.
     
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  22. Slippers-on

    Slippers-on Forum Resident

    Location:
    St.Louis Mo.
    I agree. Primaluna is certainly a fine amp!And I happen to think it will be a great match for his Omen Def's.
     
  23. Still

    Still Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Of course $1700 doesn't go as far as it did in 1991. In fact, $1700 today is the equivalent of about $925 in 1991 based on U.S. CPI data. So even with this "holds up well" example, you still lose 45% due to inflation. All this to say, selling equipment is more costly than we probably envisage so be sure to invest for the pleasure and not for the return because even good returns are not great.

    Cheers
     
    33na3rd likes this.
  24. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Ayon amps are made in Austria and enjoy an excellent reputation. These are both major selling points for me. Primaluna Prologue is made in China in factory owned by Primaluna. Unfortunately, the Ayon Scorpio does not have a tape loop, which is important to me ...
     
  25. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    That makes a degree of sense but only if you consider 3-4 items to be on par. It's not difficult to list 20 amplifiers for the same price that are all considered to be "good" in the pages of the audio press or on forums.

    And to many including me the notion that something is better than something else isn't nonsense. Single Ended amplifiers with low feedback are often the sorts of amplifiers that people "eventually" get to. And amps that usually win blind level matched auditions in spite of technical foibles.

    The only real value forums can offer up is to bring out some under the radar products. What I learned many years ago and before becoming a reviewer was that if I was down to a few finalists - if any one of them had truly stood out to me as sounding "great" I sure would not need to ask for opinions on audio forums or read reviews. If it TRULY stood apart then it would force my credit card from the wallet.

    That's why when I see someone on any forum who is rather indecisive about two amps it probably means neither is doing wholly what he wants - if it did the choice would be easy - and if both do it equally then it's about looks or price or features - which is pretty easy to decide.

    Where I think the OP's mistake lies is that they're all Push Pull amps in the KT88 and EL34 camp and IMO he is right when he says some of them sound too SS. That is usually the way KT88 and KT120 sounds to me. I found some EL34 to be better (some not all). For a more valve sounding EL34 the Line Magnetic 211IA is superb for the money.

    SlippersOn makes a good point that tube rolling can change the sound of the amplifiers and it can. The problem is though that while this is true - it is above the expectation that a consumer while out shopping at a dealer try a bunch of different tubes. The "stock sound" of the amplifier has to stand because most all amplifier makers have to choose "common" (read cheap) tubes that are in high availability so that all units have the same sound.

    This is why it is important to pay attention to what tubes the dealer is using when he auditions his demo unit compared to what you get when you buy the one in the box. You can put $5000 tubes on a $1500 amp and the guy shopping is amazed but when he gets home his $1500 amp only comes with $50 worth of tubes and wonders what happened to the ambiance and depth.

    The stock amplifier should sound great out of the box - as soon as someone starts making excuses and blames listeners because they should have bought 30 different tubes to try and thousands of dollars then I see a problem.

    The other problem is to really check what is actually a hybrid - there are several Chinese made amplifiers and CD players calling themselves a hybrid where you later find that the tube has absolutely no direct influence in the circuit whatsoever - so basically you are buying 100% SS amplifier with a tube in the window to show it's tubeyness. Or the tube is used as a buffer to simply distort a SS signal like certain guitar amps.

    With 100dB sensitive loudspeakers - the OP actually has the most options and if you're already happy to go with tube amplifiers then SET amplifiers (or SEP which is just Single Ended in Pentode operation) should be on the audition list. Any highly reputable maker is fine but get 4-5 on the list - heck the OP mentioned he liked Decware and so he can probably get some SET amplifiers from them - indeed, they make several SET amps for well under budget - then maybe put more to a preamp and have separates adding way more flexibility.

    The EL84 is a great sounding tube amp - they just lack power - 100dB speaker sensitivity - Decware has amps at $1200 or so.
     
    IanL likes this.
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