Monitor Audio "tweeters"

Low freq tones at loud level is a very bad idea on new speakers, all you will do at moderate volume is possibly destroy the dustcap glues and voice coil centering,

 

I sense a train moving at elevated speeds with a quick turn approaching and a derailment imminent... or not. we'll see

 

Does Polk make metal dome tweeters? I was always under the impression that their tweeters were soft domes, notwithstanding their silver color.

 

Welcome, new member. You will find that in reading posts in the SHF's, about the "B" words, meaning "Bose" and "Beats".

One of our more senior members, had discovered what is, perhaps the best use for Bose speakers, known to all mankind. He has a pair, which sits outside, on a window ledge, all year round. This is, so that his wife can listen to music, while she is doing her gardening.

Yes, you are correct, Wharferdale's, are and always have been a well made speaker. I own a vintage pair of W70's, that are about forty years old.

Actually, as we get older, our ears are more sensitive to loud HF sounds. In our younger days, we could listen for hours to loud HF in nightclubs. As we get older, our ears become less flexible and we loose our natural hearing protection. Our hearing fatigue sets in far sooner and things become harsh more quickly.

This is simply our bodies way of saying, TURN IT DOWN! Or, buy better equipment!

 

I don't remember the model, but believe they were titanium, didn't sound good.

 

Like yourself, I have never seen nor heard of metal tweeters in Polk speakers. That is what I like about Polk speakers. The first pair of Polk speakers that I bought for the HT setup in the motel lobby were their Monitor 70's, Series II. New Egg sells them for about $200/each.

I could listen to streaming music all day long, through these and never experience hearing fatigue. They have large cabinets, so their -3dB point is 40-cycles. Yet they can play a fairly loud volumes (with a decent amp) and still be dynamic for HT use. They are a lot of speaker for their price and perfect for someone just getting their feet wet in audio.

They have the soft dome tweeters, that you mention, which is why they are never harsh.

And, their silver color is just that, silver color (AKA paint!) they are made of plastic, not metal, save for the voice coils and the magnets.

I, myself, am not familiar with the Polk tweeters that Helom was describing. I was only agreeing, that if they did make metal tweeters, I could quite understand, how bad they must sound. Metal tweeters are not necessarily a bad thing but the decent sounding ones, usually cost a lot of money. The lesser priced ones are pretty much, universally awful harsh sounding.

Even my JBL super tweeters have their horns made of plastic and they are not harsh sounding at all.

 

Here is the top of the line speaker from Polk the LSiM707.

It features their ring radiator tweeter (lower unit), detail, without harshness.

 

I wasn't referring to all their speakers, just the one example I heard. It might have been a soft-dome that looked metal. It definitely looked the part. I also auditioned some Klipsch towers the same day that had the titanium dome, so I apologize for the confusion if I'm mistaken.

Regardless, the Polks were much brighter than the MAs driven by the same amp in the same room. My girlfriend at the time even commented on them, which was highly unusual.

I have not heard the Bronze range of MA speakers. However, my honest perception of the Silvers, vs other popular brands, is that they sound far less fatiguing, with a warmer tone. This was especially evident when compared to the Golden Ear Triton series. I've always considered myself sensitive to bright gear, one reason I usually despise metal domes and class D amps. This is why I'm perplexed by how many consider MAs as "harsh." To each his own.

Best of luck to EnglishBob in getting it all sorted.

 

I like this idea. Maybe you just got a not-so-great set, or some kind of production problem. Or quite possibly they have some peaking where your old speakers had some dip, and the difference is glaring.
I'm not going to totally pooh-pooh system synergy, but think that is less likely than other problems. Like maybe your room is very live, accentuating any peaks whether broad or narrow? Pictures?

 

I've been running a pair of MA RS6 since 2006/7 and can't say that I find them particularly harsh or disturbing at HFs. I'm in a small room so sound levels rarely get extreme so maybe that helps. Also using a valve amp and mainly vinyl playback which again may have some bearing.
As my hearing has deteriorated with age etc I have become more sensitive to high frequencies but don't have any issues with my MAs. Then again I also like Grado headphones that some find unlistenable and shrill.

 

Gust a general comment about retailers and the O.P.s comment about stressful. Personally I'd probably write them off and walk out. The last piece of equipment I purchased was my CDP, I was left alone for as long as I wanted to listen to over 12 players, just cups of coffee brought every so often. The other shop I used to frequent would let you stay as long as you wanted in their dem room. We'd chat about albums, we currently loved and play some music very relaxing, oh and a few cappuccinos.

 

The main MA that I was considering

The main MA that I was considering at the time, was the Silver 6. My regular audio salesman, whom I have a great deal of respect for, was the one who was praising the MA line. He is the same salesman who got me started with Peachtree integrated amps and their D5 & DS4.5 speakers.

As for the Polks, the most forward sounding, of all of the Polks, that I have either listened to or owned, is the RTi series, of which, I have the RTiA9's.

Even though the 1" tweeter looks silver, it is described as: Tweeter - Dynamic Balance Silk/Polymer Composite (and is not metal).

I have other speakers that have the silk domes type tweeters, and I have yet to hear a tweeter of this type of design, that sounded harsh.

I have to think that there is an error somewhere here. The type of tweeter that you are describing does not seem to belong to either Polk or Klipsch speakers.

I addition to owning many Polk's, I have owned several Klipsch speakers, I currently own a modern set of Icon WF-35 towers and a pair of legacy La Scala's, and I have never seen titanium drivers offered as an Klipsch OEM part, they are offered as an aftermarket upgrade that is supposed to offer a smoother improvement to the original OEM diaphrams.



This a an eBay photo of the aftermarket titanium diaphragm (the original drivers are the Phenolic type).

Description:
This is a new pair of replacement diaphragms for tweeters used in many of the Klipsch speakers. Diaphragm is Titanium and has a smoother output than the normal diaphragms for these tweeters. Output extends to 23 khz also. These diaphragms are used in the Klipsch K-71-K, K-72-K, K-74-K, K-75-K, K-76-K, K-79-K, K-80-K, K-81-K, K-82-K and K-83-K. You can use these diaphragms in many of the Klipsch speakers including Heresy II, Cornwall II, Quartet, Forte and Forte II, Chorus and Chorus II, the KG Series, the KLF Series, the Academy and others.

This type of diaphragm is used in the Klipsch models with the conventional horns and is hardly visible to the user, being located, deep inside of the horn throat.

Bob Crites offers these type of diaphragms as an upgrade to the OEM diaphragms.

Diaphragms of this type are not utilized on any model Polk speaker that I am aware. I have never seen conventional "horns" on any model Polk speaker.

Here is an eBay search results for: Polk Audio Vintage Speaker & Horn Drivers.

The search results do not indicate anything resembling something that might even look like it even might be a design, that could be considered harsh.

With reference to referring to Polk speakers be harsh, you are the only person on the planet that has mentioned Polk speakers as being harsh. If the audiophile portion of this community was ask to comment on the SQ of Polk speakers, many, meaning possibly the majority, might comment to the effect that, Polk speakers are not audiophile speakers. Many would be able to explain their weakness, but I doubt if any would comment on them being harsh.

They are all very laid back, somewhat dark sounding, as opposed to the brighter forward sounding Klipsch.

They is simply no way that any Polk speaker would sound brighter than any Monitor Audio speaker. Monitor audio speakers are known for their "detail", which some might consider as bright or even harsh.

I could see why someone might consider Klipsch speakers to be brighter or more perceived harshness than MA, but that kind of comment, would not be totally unexpected.

 

You hit on two important key points.

1) Valve amplification. the MS's that I listened to, years back, definitely should have been demo'd with tube amps. If they were, I believe that my initial impression of them would have been substantially different. However, the audio store did not carry valve amps, at the time.

2) Keeping the volume low! I have a pair of Klipsch La Scala's that I have taken off line as mains, which I acquired before I purchased any valve amps. Playing the loud, would result in HF that would take your head off (way more than any MA ever made), but today, I have one single La Scala connected in parallel to one of the rear speakers, because I required additional volume for that corner of the room.

Even though the rears are powered by a small 50-watt Emotiva SS amp, if you keep the volume at moderate levels, it is crisp and detailed, instead of sounding harsh. Sometimes, I like to sit on the floor, with by back against the front desk of the motel (the side of which faces that La Scala) and listen, nearfield, about 3' away and listen.

The La Scala's are very clear and detailed. Having a 15" woofer, a squaker horn and a HF tweeter horn all together in a cabinet which in only 30" high, allows the different drivers to blend together beautifully. Listening nearfield, the sound envelopes the listener, making it an interesting experience.

Turn up to volume, and the experience changes dramatically.

Bright speakers can be easily tamed by keeping the volume at moderate levels and using tube amplification, not SS.

 

I really don't want to steer this thread off topic, so this will be my last post regarding the matter.

Yes, the speakers I heard were most definitely Polks, and I know I'm not the only one in the world who considered that model harsh, because my girlfriend did as well. I bet there's someone out there who even considers a Rogers LS3 to be harsh, but generally speaking you're correct, Polks are not usually considered harsh. I also once had a pair of their silk dome tweeters in my car, they were also fairly harsh, I eventually swapped them for Fosgate Silk tweeters, and the difference was night and day.

On the flip side, a friend of mine had some Polk bookshelves years ago and I always thought they sounded much too polite.

Many (if not all) of the Klipsch Reference series speakers do in fact come standard with the titanium tweeter. I owned a pair a few years ago. They had their strengths and weaknesses.

As I said before, this was simply my honest perception of the speakers mentioned. To my ears, MAs had the warmest tone, and above all other factors, that's why they went home with me. I suppose you're perplexed by my opinion of those particular Polks, as much as I am perplexed by some folks' opinions of MA.

For all I know, there's some particular frequency that my ear bones just don't transmit. Who knows...it's a mystery why we all hear things differently. I am willing to accept this fact. I'm not trying to dog on any particular brand...maybe with the exception of GE

 

Just got a pair of Monitor Silver 8s last week, and I wouldn't call them bright nor is there any appreciable distortion, even during break-in.
Not the exact same package, but I believe the same tweeter. Some sort of system mismatch seems likely to me, but???

 

How so??? More descriptive information, please.

 

Under-powering speakers is also a bad idea, it makes the amp work harder and introduces more dc current and believe it or not it can damage them, it's for this very reason i stay away from valve/tube amps, as they tend not to have great power output levels for large speakers, I reserve valve amps for bookshelf speakers. Years ago speakers had super high sensitivity, so they didnt need powerful amps.

 

The silver 8s are a much better design and have a midrange driver to relieve the woofers from having to play higher frequencies where they sound distorted. The 8's woofers only play up until 500 Hz, not 2500 hz like the bronze 2-ways do. There is nothing wrong with the tweeter in either speaker. It's the woofer being asked to play tweeter frequencies in the OPs speakers that is the problem.

 

The La Scala's are the most efficient speakers that I own at 105-dB. The rear amps are SS and are rated at 50-WPC, nothing to worry about here.

The Altec VOTT's are rated at 103-dB and right now, I am listening to them with a Decware Mini Torii, whose maximum output is 3.9-watts.

I never underpower amps that will go into clipping. Both of these speakers will last until the sun goes dark!

The other rear speakers are Klipsch Icon WF-35 towers, also run off the 50-watt amp and are over 90-dB efficient.

I have two sets of speakers as front mains, with an A/B selector switch. A pair of Polk LSiM707's and an efficient Zu Omen Definitions Mk I. They are powered by a 250-watt Emotiva XPA-2 SS amp.

 

I my case my amp is rated 50W and speakers at 91db . There always seems to be plenty in reserve for my particular use. The speakers are one of two items i'd like to try something else just because after10 years it seems time. My days of having a friendly dealer offering home trials are now a memory and speakers are the one item I'm not prepared to purchase blindly.

 

Thank you for all your replies. I thought I owe an update on what has been happening.

So far I am about 30 hours into my run in now. (This doesn't count the 15 or so hours before, I reset the clock from this point)

I'm glad to report that the buzzing in the ears (as I explained in the OP, like ringing a tuning fork and putting it next to your ear) has now gone. I can only assume it was interplay between the mid-driver and the tweeter. If it was the mid-driver, then the run in has certainly helped.

I am using a playlist set up by Cambridge Audio on Spofify to run them in at a moderate volume...

Test your speakers like a Cambridge Audio Engineer

I have resorted to spikes with shoes on the bottom, and I went to Argos today to pick up some granite kitchen chopping boards for £10.99 and put them down.

Toe in positioning is very important with these I have found. Straight on they sound a bit thin, toeing in slightly starts to make it better until you get a sweet spot.

I have used Talk Talk's "Happiness is Easy" track on original vinyl as my positioning helper here. If the toe in is wrong, it sounds likes its underwater, really spaced out. Toeing in even further sorts that out until it no longer sounds odd.

One thing with these speakers over the old Acoustic Energy's is that they are a completely different presentation. The AE's seemed to drive the sound into your space, crank up the volume and it seemed to fill the room, right up to where you sat. These can go a lot louder, but the sound only ever seems to originate from the front.

The only way I can describe it is that the MA's sound very 2D and static, whereas the AE's pushed outwards at you. Its just totally different, neither is especially good or bad, depending on what you are listening to.

So far I am happy that things are progressing now. But ye gods they sound terrible out of the box, and the toe-in (in my room) has been absolutely crucial here.

Man-cave pictures attached!

 

They are good looking speakers!

I have MA GS60s and love them. These were preceded by GR60s, which I also loved, and Silver S8s, which I also loved.

From my experience of playing around with positioning, however, perhaps your speakers are too close to the side walls and too far from the back wall?

 

Congrats! Now get those mofos away from the side walls and you might be amazed at how they sound.

 

Haha thanks, but that won't happen give the room I have.

 

Hi, I thought I'd update this thread in interests of consistency and history.

Over 100 hours run in now clocked up, around 60-70 of those where done using that Spotify / Cambridge Audio playlist. Very useful. Even though I did get sick of the opening minute of that Nils Lofgren track "Ketih don't go" - what a terrible song.

Anyway, I'm pleased to say things really did settle down a lot over those 100 hours, they probably in truth where done around or just before the 70 hours mark.

The harshness of the treble and mid has gone. Maybe due to my room layout, but I found that toe-in is very important with these. I had them facing dead-straight from the start and they sounded too wide, thin and transparent. Toe in provided something that sounded a lot better to my ears.

These speakers are a lot easier to drive over my old AE floorstanders, there where both rated at 8ohms, but these new MA's are a lot louder and fuller in the frequencies. Put it this way, I used to be able to head the door bell and telephone downstairs whenever playing the AE's at normal volume, I can't with the MA's at all (every cloud!)

I assume they are easier to drive due to potentially due to some other metric. Normal good vinyl listening with the AE's was around -14dbs on the amp, with the MA's it can be between -19 and -21 dbs. This is great for vinyl listening, as it seems to be able to extract more detail from the recording without turning the sound up, so less surface noise and rumble is present, so that is a real plus.

I found the MA's work really well with muddy mixed albums, possibly due to the dedicated mid driver. Albums like Blackstar and Station to Station sound really really good. Bowies vocals cover all the ranges so a really good test for these.

Overall though, the sound and experience between the MA's and AE's is totally different in saying all of that. I could really really crank the AE's like mad, they had an almost 3 dimensional sound that would come out and hit you in the listening position. The MA's go loud, but to my ears they sound resolutely 2D. Its almost like the MA's are presenting their sound on a piece of glass. They are loud, but the sound seems to stay with the speakers, not reaching out to you. Its hard to describe, and who knows with further tweaking down the years I may be able to reverse that.

I've sold the AE's now, so they are out of my life. I think I've made the right decision for all of the reasons above. I'm a lot happier with them now. But they where truly terrible out of the box.