Do the more basic stylus shapes (conical and elliptical) cause records to get worn out quicker?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by colby2415, May 19, 2017.

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  1. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    I don't have much of a problem with the diagrams. They seem to illustrate what is happening pretty well. I'm going to assume they are prepared by engineers or graphic artists working closely with engineers, who are actually trying to capture facts. It's the marketing fluff, hyperbole, embedded assumptions that slickly simply slip away from the evidence shown in the charts, conclusory statements, and maximization of "could be" dread, which is all really pretty patronizing.

    Fact is, as many people have observed, there isn't a perfect all around cartridge for all your records, particularly if your collection spans decades. If you're running some of your old 1950s and 1960s LP's with a modern MicroLine stylus and then switch over to a conical you might notice a huge increase in body and "Hi-Fi" sound. You also might notice that tics and pops disappear or are substantially quieted. The first time this happens, it's enough for you to start digging deeper. Why does this supposedly inferior cartridge sound so much better?

    Because there are different tools for different jobs and the cartridges and tips of certain eras do seem to match better and bring out more.

    I'm not someone who downs expensive equipment either. There is a place for SAS styli in my collection, but there is also a place for a Sonotone 9TA, for example.

    The whole record wear thing is 90% sales pitch, in my opinion. Stands to reason: more insurance is better, right? But does it make sense to prepay on a 500 year health insurance policy? How about a 200 year policy if the price is better?

    Keep your records clean, keep your tip, whatever shape it is, clean, keep your turntable properly set up, and use reason and logic regarding when to change a stylus and you'll never ever damage a record groove.

    If you love how your conical sounds and it tracks the inner groove on 95% of your collection and you're happy, then it doesn't have to get complicated.

    Anyway, keep this in mind: many old ceramic cartridges tracked at 8 grams and higher. Many of us are playing records that were played on equipment like that and they are absolutely fine. Any stylus you use today is going to track at less than 3 grams and more likely hover around 2 grams unless you're a DJ cartridge fan in which case you might go up to 4 and then feel sweat begin to gather on your brow. But even 4 grams is half of what was still considered to be a safe tracking force by the engineers who developed the medium.

    I have many desirable cartridges. If I had to pick just one that I would have to live with for the rest of my life, it would probably be a Pickering V15 and three different styli: a conical, an elliptical and a Stereohedron.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  2. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    Shows you how subjective this hobby is I suppose. My experience has been exactly the opposite. I would describe the boron and sapphire cantilevers as being noticeably the least aggressive (and most refined and realistic in presentation) when compared against aluminum and ruby. Using a concert hall analogy I'd call the boron and sapphire more "mid-hall" with the aluminum and ruby more front row.

    I have used exclusively retipped or rebuilt cartridges the last 7-8 years so those observations are based, almost entirely, on comparing the same cartridge that has been retipped using a different cantilever material as opposed to comparing totally different cartridges.

    The only beryllium cantilevered cartridge I ever used was a Shure V15 Type V MR and it was close to 30 years ago, but my recollection of it was that it was very smooth, quiet and refined (almost too much so LOL), and much more similar in boron in nature than any of the other materials.
     
  3. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    I have heard plenty of older records that where heavily played on what must have been (given the vintage) cartridges with either conical or elliptical styli and I don't hear obvious signs of wear. I have plenty of abused records (lots of scratches and scuff marks) that I bought at used record stores that also play flawlessly. Vinyl is a pretty durable medium. I have bought records that look absolutely pristine, that had severe groove damage. That is probably caused by the use of a worn and/or misaligned cartridge. These are the primary sources of wear/damage to records, not the particular stylus type. As long as the cartridge is not mis-tracking, it is probably not doing much damage to the record. I don't know for a fact that one shape is better than the other as far as wear is concerned, so I could not say whether claims made for line contact types is hype or not, but I do agree that any scare tactic advertising overstates the case.

    I tend to find that once a used record has been thoroughly cleaned, line contact styli tend to generate less noise and show less obvious distortion from groove damage than do other types. I suspect this has to do with contacting an undamaged portion of the groove (usually deeper down). But, deeper down is where crud resides, so deep cleaning is important.
     
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  4. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I don't think it was considered "safe", it was just what it was, the best they could do at the time. Safer, maybe. When the Columbia LP was introduced in 1948, they also introduced a new Philco reproducer of "the lightest pick-up yet devised (1/5 ounce pressure on the disk) and its tracking pressure is so low..."
    Column 3 on this page from Billboard June 26, 1948
    Billboard
    That's 6 grams. And it was a crystal cartridge with an "extra-fine steel alloy permanent point which is replaceable" LP needle!
    It was understood then that records would wear out.
    Those earliest 1948-1949 Columbia LPs are nearly noisy as sandpaper now no matter how they are played, any type stylus or VTF, and they were cut at low levels compared to even 5 years later, so I am not sure what was going on then or the day they demonstrated it for Billboard editors. Maybe I need that "extra-fine steel alloy permanent point".
    But they were working to make the best carts track lighter and better.
     
  5. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    In realty, if there were these types of indentations, playing vinyl wouldn´t work. The reason the needle is only contacting at a very small spot; is depending on the difference in velocity between the needle and the vinyl. There is no time for any indentation.
    In reality, these drawings are rubbish.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  6. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    Agreed. How much of what I am hearing is the cantilever, the tip, or the cartridge manufacturer's house sound is hard to pick apart and even harder to generalize.

    I also have a V15-VMR with beryllium cantilever. It is very smooth, very laid back, but also very detailed and lush. I can see why people love this cartridge. But it's dynamics are not its strong point. Put a boron SAS on it, and it becomes very different--aggressive, sharp, focused, bordering on etched. I can see why some people like this combination better, but can be faulted for changing the Shure sound to an "Audio-Technica" sound. With the SAS, it sounds to me just like an AT150MLX. Put a sapphire neoSAS/s on it, and it sounds just like the SAS. Put a Pfanstiehl 4772-DHE on it, and it sounds to me, exactly the same as with the original VN5MR stylus, so in this case beryllium and aluminum sound just alike.

    BUT, with a V15-VxMR, the boron SAS sounds exactly like the original beryllium VN5xMR, so I can see why Shure purists are thrilled with the SAS stylus. They don't complain that the Shure sound is completely altered. However, that has more to do with the V15-VxMR's electrical damping that rolls off the high end to a degree. Put either SAS for the VMR into the VxMR (It'll fit!) and that sharpness on the high end that makes the V15-VMR sound like an AT is not present. The V15-VxMR also doesn't sound half bad with an N97xE stylus, even though it's not supposed to be a good match. I haven't really sat down with that combo, though. I would suspect that many do that since the VN5xMR stylus is practically unobtainium now and just quietly enjoy it.

    The Shure M97xE with the Expert Stylus Co., sapphire/Paratrace retip is definitely more aggressive than the original aluminum N97xE, but how much of that also has to do with the Paratrace tip? I wanted to find out, but due to Shure's QC problems delaying Expert Stylus Co.'s ability to produce, I waited for well over a year to get an aluminum (aluminium if you're speaking Queen's English) before I finally gave up a month ago. SAS for the V15-VxMR sounds great in it, though, and not as aggressive/forward as the sapphire/Paratrace).

    I've also got a Stanton D81S that's been retipped with an Expert Stylus Co. sapphire cantilever and Paratrace tip. This one sounds exactly like the Stanton WOS Collector's Series 100 with what is likely a "sapphirized" (that is, anodized) aluminum but possibly a beryllium cantilever. It's got a much sharper high end extension than the normal "sapphirized" Stereohedron. So in this case, sapphire does not sound at all like the standard aluminum alloy Stanton stylus but does sound like the possibly aluminum alloy stylus of the CS-100. I just can't find out any definitive info on what the CS-100's cantilever composition is.

    I also had a Pickering D1200 retipped with aluminum and a Paratrace to see what that would sound like, but that retip went bad from the start. I never really got a chance to hear it. What I did hear, though, sounded nice, sharply detailed, with excellent attack transients. But it was singularly the most sibilant stylus I've ever heard, a complete (compleat?) failure and with less than two hours of play the cantilever assembly completely slipped out of the stylus grip. I'm trying to figure out if I can get it back together myself, improve it and kill the sibilance, or transplant it or a suspension bushing from an aftermarket stylus into it. Luckily, I received a full refund from that one.

    I could go on, as I have more boron and sapphire tipped cartridges, but you get the point. You never know, really, what you're going to hear until you hear it. Just when you think you've got something figured out, you try something else and you realize there's a lot more to it and just about anything can be tuned.

    The only conclusion I can come to is that while I have heard beryllium, boron and sapphire sound as laid back as aluminum, I've never heard the opposite. That is, I've never heard an aluminum cantilever sound as aggressive and fast as the stiffer materials--EXCEPT, for aluminum cantilevers in ceramic cartridges where the cantilever is coupled directly to the generator. Those are wicked fast--faster than any magnetic cartridge I've ever heard.

    An anodized and tapered aluminum cantilever can come pretty close in speed to boron, however. The AT440/ML/MLa/MLb is pretty good that way. I have an old ATX-1201S, which is a Shibata that is anodized, tapered and hardened and it's really, really close to boron and esp. sapphire (at least how those sound in the VMR or the D81S retip).

    Ortofon Quintet Black with the boron cantilever and Shibata stylus, though is at once one of the most laid back and yet detailed and fast cartridges I've heard. Hard to imagine, I guess, but it's detailed and smooth.
     
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  7. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Fascinating video Biker, well done!
    Here are my take aways from this,
    Indeed the Stanton stereohedron is scoring up the groove, nice shards of vinyl peeling right off. I noticed also, the Stanton suspension appears stiff. The cantilever does not float very much under its tracking force. The problem may be in part, or in total, the result of an old stiff suspension, which will require stylus replacement.

    The MLA cantilever floats beautifully under its tracking force, a good sign that the suspension is working properly, and that its compliance is at or near spec.
    The off-center pressing imposes side to side deflection of the cantilever, throwing it out of line. This has never been audible as harmonic distortion to me, but I do not own very many off-centered pressings either, as I have a particular disdain for pitch shifting.
     
  8. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I have a couple off-center LPs where I can hear noise in the groove with the microline cart. My conical tames it a bit. Obviously the long term solution is to get rid of those off-center records and replace them. I've done that with a few. Sometimes it can be very frustrating when you're dealing with something that isn't easily replaced (e.g. a band from Eastern Europe whose LP was limited to less than 200 copies).
     
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  9. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Suspensions that have gone stiff are one reason I'm very leery of NOS styli.
     
  10. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    Cool videos. I see the weird stuff regarding the Stereohedron, but it's hard to say what that is. It could be shaving the groove, but if you say that it sounds fine, well, that's hard to believe then. Could it be lifting crud out of the groove?
     
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  11. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    It amazes me how people recommend using NOS or seek them out after so many years. Sometimes for big money too. Rubber degrades. Test them, there's no way they're going to meet spec. At best you have a slightly underperforming cart. At worst though…
     
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  12. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    My NOS stylus (cart was NOS when I bought it in '95) doesn't visibly ¨float¨either, but neither does the Jico replacement I have on tap (tried it)
     
  13. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    I have all kinds of NOS, just plain used second hand, retips, as well as brand spankin' new. I am truly addicted. No category has had a perfect track record of reliability. When the brand spankin' new ones fail, at least you have a warranty to rely on usually, but not always. I will say that 98% the time across all three categories I get good stuff that has no problems. I've bought hundreds of cartridges and styli.
     
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  14. Hubert jan

    Hubert jan Forum Resident

    So that's it, music starts with your favorite music on regular commercial records bought in the shop. One norm is max groove excursion 50 micron at 300 Hz, if this norm is not maintained these day's than the innocent music lover cant buy records anymore before listening and testing them. What a BS.
     
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  15. Simoon

    Simoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I have 2 NOS cartridges, both are in perfect condition. One of them is the highly regarded SAE 1000 HOMC (built by Coral) that were being sold in sealed boxes a few years ago.

    I took it to my friend's workshop after it was broken in, and it met or exceeded ALL specs. I am not sure how many cartridges use natural rubber. I believe most use synthetic, such as butyl, even back in the 70's. But I may be wrong.

    Still sounds great. And far exceeds the $200 I paid for it.

    As far as the original topic, I may be the only person to disagree with the majority, but after taking part in this exact conversation about 10 years ago with several friends, one of which is a materials engineer. He made a pretty good case for line contact and Shibata styli causing less record wear. More surface area, so weight is distributed over a greater area of the groove. Less heat due to the same.
     
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  16. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Yes. The D74S stylus on the Stanton cart was purchased in the 90s. It's very old. I'm sure the suspension is gone. These Stanton have a reputation for the suspension completely collapsing.

    I've tried to replace it but with little success. The MLa sounds magnificent. The only time the Stanton gets used is for older scratched up / beat up records and for styrene 45s which I understand should not be played by a microline like the MLa.

    The stereohedron sounds great, but I don't trust it with my records after seeing that video.

    I just got a Pfanstiehl hypereliptical for my living room system and listening to it - not as clean as the AT 440MLa or the Stanton. But better than the AT elliptical that I had on the P-mount cart there.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
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  17. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Look up the prices for that specific stylus the Stanton D74S as NOS. :eek::eek::eek::eek:!! It was near top of the line at the time. Suspensions famous for collapsing.
     
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  18. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    FWIW, I recently bought a Pickering D1200 replacement from Jico directly, not the inexpensive EVG (but that's a nice one, too). Cost with shipping is $74. It's an amazing stylus--blew me away, really. I had such low expectations of a .3 x .7 bonded tip, in the first place, but even after a readjusted my attitude, it still blows me away and it's only got a couple sides on it so far so nowhere near broken in.
     
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  19. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    I wonder if the collapsed suspension thing is related to climate. I hear that out west anything made of rubber pretty much fails after a decade or so. I've seen few collapsed Stanton and Pickering suspensions and also few hardened Shure suspensions. However, the Pickering and Stanton suspensions respond very well indeed to WD-40 in tiny tiny amounts left overnight if they've collapsed. Not sure how to treat them in they've hardened but I haven't heard of Stanton/Pickering styli hardening.
     
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  20. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Depending on how this Pfansteihl hyper-elliptical works out in the living room I may PM you about a source for that. I tried the LP gear "vivid line" stylus and the one I got sounded horrible on my old Pmount turntable there though it looked like a pristine masterpiece under a microscope.

    Here's what the new stylus looks like:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And the D74S that I purchased circa 1996 from the mail order / internet shop "Needle In A Haystack" under the same microscope. Looks like a masterpiece.

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    You're not the first to suggest that it's lifting crud out of the groove. It may be. It sounds and looks perfect.
     
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  22. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    First, I have the LPGear ViVidline for the Pickering XLZ-7500S, which also works as well in Moving Iron bodies. I have no complaints at all. Perhaps that AT one you've got has a manufacturing flaw. Okay, there is one complaint: the LPGear ViVidline does not use a suspension tie wire, which makes it a little squirrelly in that you can't use any antiskate at all or the cantilever goes off center. I also think that if a tie wire were used, there could be an improvement in sound--perhaps that's what you get with the highest level Jico, the Jico Shibata. I've got one of those for the XSV/3000 and it's every bit as good as an original D3000 sonically, but it doesn't track quite as light. it sounds best at 1.5g whereas an original D3000 can track at 1 gram and even lower.

    Second, the source for the Jico is the jico website itself. I just checked my order. It was $56 + $22, so $78. Still, a great price for what I got. Plus, I ordered three other styli for other cartridges to spread out the shipping cost. I'm very happy with this stylus. I haven't tried it on my very most sibilant records, but it passed the test with the one I use the most to check for sibilance problems. It's not quite as silky smooth as an original D1200, but it's very close and could improve in time.

    Here's the link: JICO stylus | Online Shopping for Japanese Phonograph Needles

    This is the link to the actual stylus: D1200, JICO stylus | Online Shopping for Japanese Phonograph Needles
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
  23. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Crud usually will adhere to the stylus, soft crud or sludge, but weird stuff can happen. Does appear to me the vinyl is being peeled off! Also too, this was not audible as it happened. It seems to me either scenario would be audible, but maybe in this universe we have certain weird quantum events that confound conventional physics and consciousness?

    ..... What we observe on the camera didn't happen. (it did and didn't) It occurred in a different variant of reality .....
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
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  24. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    Very hard to tell what's going on given that high contrast lighting. Jumping to conclusions is very tempting. I would have figured that shaved vinyl would make curly cues, though and that record damage like that, which I would place in the "catastrophic" category, would be audibly unpleasant.
     
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  25. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    Obviously these are not African records you are acquiring haha. But yes as long as the record wasn't played to death, wasn't mishandled and the stylus wasn't chipped , record grooves are amazingly durable. Of course stores carry records that were bought originally by folks with reasonable gear. The ones that were played on very cheap destructive TT have been sent to the dumpster already. Unless they are African.
     
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