Rega Planar 2(2016) Auto Bias/Anti Skate

I purchased a new Rega Planar 2 about six months ago with the Elys 2 cartridge. Since day one there has been significant inner groove distortion on the last third of the record. Also more sibilance than i can handle. The cartridge was fitted by the original dealer, re-aligned again after I mentioned my concerns (they say its sounds great) and then re-aligned again by a different dealer once again (they can hear the distortion). After tons of reading into this phenomenon and countless cartridge reviews and I'm sort of at my wits end ready to get a Planar 3 with a Nagaoka or Ortofon cartridge. Before going down that drastic path, I was wondering if there is an issue with the turntable itself with the Elys 2 combination and the Auto Bias "feature" of the new Planar 1 and 2.

I came across the method of using a blank cd/dvd to test the bias/anti skate. As soon as I slowly lower the tone arm and it makes contact with the disc, it immediately wants to shoot back to the out edge..not gradually..very quickly. Could this force be causing the issues I'm experiencing? Is this considered "normal" for these Rega turntables and not a concern? I never had the original Carbon cartridge fitted , so I have no idea what that sounds like with regards to the noise. Is it that the Auto Bias is meant for the Carbon and with the Elys 2 requiring a slightly less tracking force, this cartridge is in essence incompatible with this set up ? Or any other cartridge requiring a different tracking force for that matter ....

 

The blanck disc method of checking anti-skating is bunk. It cannot work as there is zero skating force applied, so it will mistakenly indicate too much anti-skating every time. No matter what cartridge, you'll always end up setting AS to zero or way too low by doing that. Forget about that. Both skating forces and inner groove distortion are always present on every record, just at different levels. Both are dynamic, with skating decreasing and distortion increasing as the stylus approaches the portion of the groove nearest the record label. All anyone can do is to minimize these effects. It is a physical medium and they will always be present to some degree. Choosing a cartridge that has a much finer stylus tip will help to minimize this. The Rega Exact is their best MM for this, and other brands have different shapes as well. The Ortofon 2m Bronze is popular for this reason. The AT VM540ML and Shure M97xe are less expensive and also excellent trackers. They are a bit less neutral in presentation than the Ortofon with the Shure sounding warmer, softer in most systems and the AT sounding brighter.
-Bill

 

Thanks for the additional insight Bill.

 

The blank disc method is flawed, but it isn't because there is no skating on a blank surface. If I set the tracking force on my Rega at 2.0 g and my anti-skating at the 2.0 notch and then lower it into the dead wax on a record, the stylus will skate so fast on the smooth vinyl that it will catch up to the groove ahead of it.

 

the antiskate in the Rega table is the only gripe i hv against it.
i tuned it by ear

 

Well, the polycarbonate disc method mentioned is flawed because it has a different friction coefficient than vinyl, and you risk crunching your stylus on your mat if you aren't careful. The blank vinyl LP method is not flawed and has been used for many years, and I think is still one of the best methods to set anti-skate (many of us shoot for a slow drift to center). But whatever method works best for people is what they should use, there isn't really a best-for-all answer.

 

I guess I have expressed myself incompletely on two occasions regarding this topic. When I say the blank vinyl method I'm talking about the practice of expecting the stylus to stand still on spinning blank vinyl. I believe you made this exact correction on the other occasion. I am not referring to Soundsmith's advice on how slowly to expect it to drift inward. The practice described on an old test record I still have clearly says to expect the stylus to stand still while riding in the blank vinyl. That is a flawed method.

 

That's fine, the OP talked about using a CD/DVD to test the skating, that is what I was referring to, same in one of the other threads where that same method came up since it's a popular video on youtube, I just picked your post to quote, sorry. But I don't think making it stand still on a blank vinyl disc is necessarily flawed, that is likely what happens with the "normal" settings recommended by manufacturers that are often derived from equal distortion in rather heavily modulated grooves. It just seems more reasonable to go for the slow drift, so we are pretty much in agreement. I don't think Bill likes it, though

 

Hey Stonecold,
May I ask what stylus tip you have on the Elys 2?
Distortion and sibilance correlates more to the tip shape than any other factor, by far. Tracking force too low is the second most significant cause.
Of lesser cause is the anti-skate setting, as a little off on that will not cause significant distortion. For example on my own modest workhouse I use for test playing records, a simple Technics (rather cheapo) SL-D205 with a Shure M97 XE will not distort nor mistrack with the anti-skate setting at max or min. We should always set the anti-skate to the tracking force as a starting point, as this helps to extend stylus life, and minimizes groove wear. (BTW at lower tracking forces near minimum, the extreme anti-skate errors could cause the onset of distortion, but rarely ever at the recommended tracking forces... Personal example: the AR XA is designed with no anti-skate whatsoever. I owned one and never had sibilance nor inner groove distortion. The cantilever eventually leaned to the right as skating forces will fatigue the suspension.. at that time the stylus was replaced)

KT88 is 100% correct about how to not set the anti-skate with a blank record. We will find this all over you tube by so-called "experts".... all of them are completely incorrect. (as the physical laws of friction and physics override anyone's opinion)

Here is a very accurate method of setting your anti-skate
More about distortion in a moment.... as setting your anti-skate will not cure this problem you are having...
1) Looking head on to the headshell, observe the cantilever. It should be centered, not leaning left nor right. Lower the arm about 10 mm from the outer rim of a record, and observe the cantilever as it settles in the groove. The outer tracks are where we have the most skating force, and where we need the most anti-skating force applied. A well designed anti-skate mechanism compensates by applying less anti-skate as the arm swings closer to the label where we have the least skating force.
2) If the cantilever deflects to your right (toward the outer rim of the record) apply MORE anti-skate
3) If the cantilever deflects to your left (toward the record label) apply LESS anti-skate
4) adjust the anti-skate until the cantilever remains centered.
5) repeat at the inner groove of the record
6) If there is a difference, adjust between the two, favoring the inner band.

To rid yourself of sibilance and inner groove distortion, consider a 0.2 x 0.7 mil elliptical, such as the Shure M97-XE with a Jico stylus, -or- perhaps any Audio Technica line contact or Shibata. A Shure M95 with hyper elliptical stylus is an outstanding tracker and has a nice flat response, the least warm of all the Shure cartridges but tracks beautifully.

keep 'em spinning,
Steve VK

 

Thanks guys. The stylus is an Elliptical one. Recommended tracking force is 1.75 and I've briefly tested between 1.5 and 2.0 with the distortion essentially the same across that range. The Planar 1 and 2 do not have a manual anti-skate setting as its been auto set to handle the stock Carbon cartridge that tracks at 2.0. Perhaps this has a bit of an effect on the distortion, but there are lots of comments that its just the nature of the beast with that cartridge and it is more noticeable to some more than others. That just what I've come across. I can check the cantilever motion..thanks for the suggestions with that Steve.

One other concern is with older vinyl where i have numerous albums that skip with this setup. Most albums have no skips, but some have several and the vinyl looks great. I use a VPI machine as well. I took several of these over to test on my sisters Denon DP-300F. Most of the skips are non-existent, not even a click in that spot. Changing tracking force doesnt make a difference. On one particular album, Breakfast In America, there is a track where it skips back consistently and I've tried three different copies (same pressing). This does not skip on the Denon and I tried it on a Planar 3 with the same cartridge , no skip. Both of those turntables have manual anti-skating. I'm definitely curious about the issue and its been a learning experience, however I'm likely to move on to Planar 3 with a cartridge mentioned in this thread.

 

This.

 

OK, now this sounds like a horse of another color. I thought that you were talking about a tiny bit of distortion at the very end of records and that that might be noticeable by you but not but most others. That is what we hear with IGD, which is present in some degree on all record players. None of this has anything to do with anti-skate. This is usually a stylus profile or alignment issue. But now you are saying that not only do you hear distortion on inner groove, but that the playback skips, and will not pass certain difficult passages. That is caused by another issue, which is likely cartridge damage. If the tonearm movement feels free without resistance other than the weight of the cartridge across its travel, then the cartridge is unquestionably damaged. The Elys sounds quite nice and tracks every record that i have played with them. I have one as a spare at home and use it every now and again when I change turntables or preamps and don't feel like spending the time with my $1000 LOMC cart or a step-up transformer, etc. You could have some gunk stuck to the stylus that needs to be cleaned off despite your best efforts there. I have seen this and had to clean one with alcohol and some scrubbing under a microscope to get it off, after which it played fine again. Or the diamond or the suspension of the cartridge could be damaged. I don't think that the Elys was ever offered as a premounted option on the Planar 2, so that must have been a dealer offering. I would be suspect that a damaged cartridge from a customer return has been mounted and sold as new. I have found the big mail order houses to do this now with regularity and try to pass off problems as those of the mfr, which they seem to be shameless about. So if the arm is fine, and a really thorough stylus cleaning doesn't sort this all out for you, you'll need to replace the whole cartridge.
-Bill

 

??? what does this site do.. it produces no sound and I do not understand your point!

 

Thanks Bill, yeah its hard to describe the situation in few words and doesn't help if something potentially crucial was left out. After having built up a 2 channel system I decided to finish it off with a turntable. Lots of reading lead me the to the new Planar 2 with favorable opinions. Read several comments where people were saying to ditch the stock Carbon cartridge and move up to something else such as the Elys 2. I ordered the new turntable last December along with the Elys 2 from one of the two more popular Authorized dealers in town and wanted that cartridge fitted before pickup since I wouldnt have the patience or steady hand for that. I had a small collection of 75 LPs that I dug out after 25 years of storage. Most of those are fine with regards to not skipping and the Supertramp one I mentioned was tried very early on within the first few days where I noticed the skip backwards. I noticed the skipping happening on some of the other used vinyl I started picking up. Some skip backwards and will move on after a couple tries others I have to lift the tonearm and move along. Others will have the skip ahead issue. Its not every LP and almost none of my originals. Most of the skipping occurs where there appears to be no scratches or other visual contaminants that didnt come off with the VPI. The distortion on inner tracks is on almost all used vinyl. I've played one brand new one and it seemed fine. I have several other new ones I havent opened since I'm waiting until I can resolve this one way or another.

The original purchasing dealer did their realigning and no doubt ran their tests on excellent quality vinyl. When I took the table to the 2nd dealer, they offered for me to bring in some of my own material if it was still driving me nuts to see how their tables
would do with it. The first dealer left it with an email stating that it sounded great there and didnt know what was wrong at my home. So I left it at that with them getting the feeling they didnt care to deal with it any further. Since it seems ok on new vinyl I didnt want to push it since less than pristine vinyl could be the cause of several things.

I havent checked the cantilever for anything that looks out of place yet. I've used one of those small carbon fiber brushes every couple of LPs along with Nagaoka liquid stylus cleaner every couple as well more recently. Sound has been the same all along.

 

Well, as more info seems to surface as I ask questions, your troubles seem to become more cloudy. It is possible to have two separate issues going on at one time, each causing different problems. I don't know if your dealers have any real analog set-up experience. It is plausible that they do not and that the arm, and or cartridge was never set-up properly. Without being able to verify that, we just can't say what is happening for certain. One peculiar point about the Planar 2 turntable is that its arm cannot be balanced and then weight set without understanding how the system works. ie, you need some experience and be able to follow the instructions exactly. The counterweight doesn't have a full dial scale showing weight in grams on it and if the person who set it up didn't follow directions precisely, then there is no way to know if the proper VTF has been applied. It can be verified with a stylus force gauge. That could cause tracking issues in itself. I was assuming before that the table was properly set-up. I am not sure about that now. Also you now inform me that the distortion that you hear on inner groove areas is only on used Lps. That can be due to groove damage from prior owners. So no way to assess that based on what you are telling me. You need someone who knows what they are doing to go over the set-up and verify everything. You having the record that skips and the one with IGD would help them understand what you are hearing and seeing so that they could show you their solution. So you could have any or any number of the following issues:

1) Defective or damaged tonearm bearings
2) Defective or damaged cartridge
3) Very dirty stylus, may be invisible to the naked eye
4) Damaged used vinyl samples
5) Improper tonearm set-up
6) Improper cartridge set-up

My bet is that a new cartridge and alignment, set-up will solve most of this. All but the damaged used records; that is not reversible. You can clean them, but you can't unscratch them...
-Bill

 

With regards to a previous question, the cantilever looks fine to my 50 year old eyes using a basic magnifying glass and the cover the Elys2 which doubled as a magnifying glass, but that's not saying much given my expertise on the subject Both dealers have been around since the 70s, but the dealer I did not purchase from gives me a warmer feeling with repairs. This guy is there all week doing sales and working on customer items when time allows. The other place has a guy that comes in on Saturdays. At any rate, no need to bash abilities of either here. I've used a digital scale to measure the force. Trying to balance that arm on a Planar 2 without a scale is a nightmare with it flopping all over and wanting to go back to the side of the table. I set up my sisters Denon and that arm hovered perfectly in one place before setting the counterweight. With the Rega I just confirmed the weight by putting it on a scale with grams often mentioned here. When I first got the scale after noticing the distortion, I checked what the initial dealer had it set to and it was at 2 grams. After the first return it was set to 1.75 where I had set it and after the 2nd alignment with the other dealer it was at 1.75. I've tried between 1.50 and 2.0 briefly.

Since I do realize there is so many variables I've decided to go see the selling dealer and offer to bring in some of my material to be done with this. Ideally they'll just do a swap since there is warranty and go from there. Thanks a bunch for the feedback Bill and thanks to others as well for the comments.

 

Just an update. After testing some sample vinyl that highlighted my complaints, the dealer felt that there was too much auto anti-skate happening and Rega is swapping out the turntable with a new unit. Curious about that result. If anyone reading this has a Planar 1 or 2, how does Supertramp's Goodbye Stranger on an original Breakfast In America pressing work out for you? I have three Canadian copies that skip backwards half way through the track in the same spot. Does not skip on a Planar 3 with Elys 2.

 

New Planar 2 came into dealer and they tried my Supertramp test on the attached Carbon. No skips. Put on the Elys 2 from my other table and.....skips Back to Rega's court. I say they need to test with another Elys 2 , but in the mean time I have their floor model Planar 3 with different Elys 2 to play with.

 

Planar 3 has resolved all of the issues I've had and sounds noticeably better overall. I kept a list of albums that skipped and they are all good now. All albums that I've tried have vocals centered where before the vocals were off center no matter of the slight adjustments I made in with seat position...that was the weirdest thing. I attributed that to how the albums was made initially because I tried a mono record and everything was centered with that. Elton John's Yellow Brick Road album one side one was annoying that way. Perfect now. A couple of albums were totally unlistenable..sounding like someone was killing a cat. Good now. I had started making a pile of "rejects" to either throw away or sell that I purchased used over the past several months. Going through those and most are keepers now. What a weird frustrating experience.

 

hi, wanted to share my experience with a new Planar 2 that also demonstrated the same issue with antiskate as Stonecold, he's not alone. I needed a second system in a downstairs area, I've owned a Rega RP10 for a few years now and love it, so a cheap option was to grab the P2, after all it seems to get reasonable reviews. To my surprise when setting up the VTF, the arm would just rush towards the rest position and I mean run! So I follwed the instructions in the hope that the factory present for antiskate would come into allignment once the recommended force of 2 grams was applied to the Carbon Cartridge... It kind of worked but I noticed it got noisery as the LP played through, I have a back up Rega Exact so tried it, the recommended force is 1.75 g ... just like Stonecold it skipped on on number of lp's and always about 1-2 inches in. After endless web searches I was lucky to find Michael Lims website, Michael was kind enough to suggest uncoupling the tonearm and look under it.... there's a magnet that is lightly glued in place, pull it out about 5mm and re-silicon it ... this worked brilliantly and the issue is gone. Thank you Michael!!

 

So, the real problem is the lack of adjustable anti-skate on the RB220 arm (and the RB110 arm on the Planar 1) ?

I've read this on a number of hi-fi forums in recent months. Seems Regas cost cutting decision to remove the adjustable magnet is the issue here.

Seems if you want a Planar 1, you'd be better trying to locate the older P1 with the RB101 arm, or if you have a Planar 2 try changing the RB220 arm for a RB202 or RB251 arm.


Or just buy a Planar 3.

 

Thanks for sharing grooveman. Found detailed pictures on another forum since I no longer have the P2 to see first hand. Glad that was a simple fix. Almost got totally turned off on my revisit to vinyl over that experience, but I'm happy happy with my P3 and Ortofon Bronze cart.

 

On the subject of the new Planar 2, what's you guy's take on the new line of Edwards Audio tables? Audio Distinction | Turntables and Analog Audio Systems

Their TT1 MK2 is in the same price range of the new P2, and uses the old RB202 arm that has adjustable bias. Plus it can take a speed control unit. Not the same motor or bearing as the Rega tables, though. I'm curious how it stacks up.

 

Well that's a bonus for a start. I've got a feeling Rega may regret this cost cutting on the RB110 and RB220 arms.

 

hi I know I'm like really late in making this post on the issue...but you need to have Rega replace the tonearm assembly. it's the magnet. not the IDEA behind why they used the magnet, but there are inconsistencies in how it's mounted, cut, etc. get them to put another 220 on it and then try it out. warranty will cover.