Harbeth P3esr is here!

we have already talked about the same thing at audiokarma. Im not sure how come you dont remember, but when I had my AN j lx i tried them in farfield position.

the AN J lx was in the same room but it was 2 years ago, the bed wasnt there and I didnt have half of the treatments I have now I also tried to remove all treatment). I did tried them them in the corners and me sitting 9 feet away. they measured terrible that way. Ive tried multiple placement, in corners, out of corners, ect. Ive also tried them in my living room. I never tried them in nearfield.

Allright, ill wait for the ecdesigns equilibrium 160 WPC before any conclusions.

As much as I like my gaincard, im sure your right. ill try a more powerful and better amp!


thanks!

 

No that's lovely, the best headphones ever. Just lye back.

 

Funny, I went from the P3ESR to the AN-J, and I use a 15wpc tube amp; I loved the Harbeth midrange, but I'm glad I made the change, the P3ESR just need the juice.

 

im back with using low powered amps so will probably re audition the Audio Note speakers. sadly, theres not much very efficient speakers.

 

Consider some Omega's as well. They can easily be driven on 2 watts, made in America, etc. and very affordable. There are people that have moved from Harbeth's to Omega's and you can find a few of their comparisons around the web.

Here's a thread over on Audio Circle with some comparisons, and if you scroll down you will find a great description of some of the differences from @seikosha (a member of the SHMF's) who has owned both Omega RS5XRS and Harbeth P3ESR.

 

Hi Beowulf

I think the big reason it's easy to move from small two way (that does not have much bass depth like the P3 and various LS-3/5a speakers) is that a "good" single driver implementation will likely be considerably better in the midrange in terms of cohesion - no crossover - no two different drivers trying to cover the same frequency spectrum. Sure the single driver lacks treble extension and bass - but the small (cheaper) two ways out there don't have much bass anyway and the treble usually isn't spectacular. I would rather one good driver that two cheaper (lesser) drivers. The other issue is that if the company is direct selling you are not paying for importers and dealers. The price would go up at least by double.

I would say though that it only applies to the small standmounts because bigger two ways and bigger speakers with more drivers etc have gains that no single driver can muster and those are dynamics, volume, bass, bass at volume, treble extension and sophistication and very good ones are very good at cohesion. I haven't heard the Omega but I have heard various very good single drivers like the Teresonic Ingenium which I would take over any Harbeth largely because of what Seikosha is describing but also because the Ingenium has decay. At a show that room was right next to the Audio Note room (or a couple of doors away). The AN E had better midbass drive, deeper bass, more dynamics, so on amplified music it was better - the Ingenium has that cohesive initial attack on the note that isn't there on 2 ways. But the Ingenium sounded compressed and hard on the trance disc I used. Now 99.9% of Ingenium users aren't likely to buy trance music - neither for that matter will AN E users but my view is it should play everything - so IMO the AN E is a much better all-rounder than the Ingenium while the latter will be beguile if you play the music it is capable of playing.

Just can't get away from advantages inherent in the design.

 

Umm, but in the actual first post on that thread a guy is saying he sold his Harbeth Super HL5 plus speakers @ almost $7K for a pair of Omega Super Alnico Monitors at less than 3x the cost of the Harbeths. Going back to that same person's profile gallery shows that he also had Audio Note speakers ~ which he also sold.

So your thoughts about bigger speakers with more drivers etc. have gains that no single driver can muster works both ways doesn't it? Where single driver speakers have gains that no multi-drivers can muster either. Namely and from my own experience, single drivers will open up/come alive and be much more detailed at much lower volumes than multi-drivers can (ever wonder why the music at audio shows is cranked so high ... because it takes that much juice to get them going) you don't need to do that with single drivers as they sound almost as good at low volumes than at modest volumes, they also have better coherency and spookier 3D imaging, better decay of notes, speed (the starting and stopping of notes) and the lack of a crossover equals better more realistic tones IMO.

Here's a nice review by John Darko of what a person could expect from an Omega Loudspeaker.

They are not "rave" speakers for sure and most certainly cannot be as dynamic as multi-driver speakers, but the Omegas can handle any types of music you can throw at them as long as the volume is kept at what I would call normal/sane listening levels. Go past that and they will start showing their flaws and cannot keep up with multi-drivers.

BTW, I don't listen nearfield either, my speakers are about 10 feet from my listening position and the volumes at most audio shows (that I have experienced) are much louder on average than what I would normally listen to in my own home setting.

I agree, if one really likes to crank up their music or has a bigger room to fill and needs a speaker that won't break up at high volumes most single drivers are not for them, unless they augment with a sub that can keep up with them such as the Voxativ 9.87 (those will surely give a lot of those multi-driver speakers a run for the money in those categories as well), but then we're talking bass augmentation ~ though still the most important/crucial frequencies as preserved as a whole with the wide banders.

I live in a townhouse and rarely ever crank my music up past sane levels. I'm an imaging and detail freak that likes to listen at moderate to low levels and most of my critical listening is done at night when my family is already sleeping, so what floats my boat are single drivers with supplemental bass augmentation. So priorities man ... what's important to one person can be completely different to another.

 

I have lived with 3 single driver speaker: fe127en fonken, mark audio alpair 12p, coral beta 8. I have a love and hate relationship, love the coherence which imo is not miles ahead of anything else, contrary to RGA opinion and im not a fan of the rising response and break up in the highs, the treble lacks definition and air. they also by desing have compromised bass

ok thanks
considerably better in the midrange the P3esr or new proac or many small speakers? ive honestly never heard considerably better in the mid. id argue its pretty hard to beat many small 2 ways speaker in coherency and the lack of bass extension and small box make the box less present, which make the bass dissapear easier.
I dont find single driver any better in the midrange then ls35a which have the xo basically outside of the midrange at 3.5khz and anyway, I eventually find them tonally incorrect

I just feel like you enjoy taking a stab at stuff you never had in your room and really spent time with, while all the time trying to make everyone believe the audio note an e is such a better design when its almost exactly the same as a shl5+.
this is getting so boring and almost feel personal. why do you come in MY thread and tell ME, again for the tenth time that you prefer AN over Harbeth? dont you think I registered what you think by now?

 

Out of the 3 drivers that you mentioned I'm only familiar with the Fostex and Mark Audio and I'm not a huge fan of either of those as well. IMO the Omega drivers are more on par with Voxativ and AER when it comes to sound performance than with those drivers you listed ~ though the build quality on the Voxativ and AER are insane (I'm not trying to kid anyone there) ~ and Louis has worked hard designing his drivers to eliminate the shout often associated with a lot of other single wideband drivers. I've never felt I was missing anything from the top end, but bass of course, as already mentioned, is not their strong point which is why I recommend augmenting them with a sub ... but as you're coming from P3ESR's @ 75Hz you're already used to having little bass performance. The Super 3i Desktop Monitors dig a little deeper @ 55Hz and have the same top end specs at 20kHz (though the +/- dB are not mentioned on Omega's website).

Anyways, I was just throwing it out there as another alternative to high efficiency speakers that are very easy to drive and there are some comparisons to Harbeth out there that are favorable. Enjoy the journey

 

The point I was trying to make was to not be concerned because "someone else" sold a Harbeth for an Omega or an AN for a DeVore, or an AN for a Harbeth or a Harbeth for an AN.

Most of this simply comes down to the music you play, the room acoustics, and the overall impression it makes. I thought I tried to illustrate why a Single driver has an inherently superior sound (if it is made well) in the midrange.

The fact is all speakers are one series of a compromise you make in exchange for something else - like great measuring speakers that for whatever reason not encapsulated in all the very limited measurements people take sound tonally banal or simply creates no enthusiasm in the listener (or some anyway).

It's about recognizing what a given design does well and also noting what it doesn't do well. For instance Magnepan - here is a speaker company that has sold for over 40 years, has a HUGE following of loyal enthusiastic - Magnepan or bust - supporters. I can admit they are a fine speaker maker - but they're just absolutely not my cup of tea. They do zilch for me. Same for passive preamps, most speakers that use Kevlar woofers and on and on.

And I can say the same for Harbeth or AN - 40 years selling speakers all around the world for high dollars - whether one likes the sound or not is beside the point. I don't and never did like Michael Jackson - but I recognize the man had a ton of talent - it's just that his talent didn't excite me.

But this notion that one guy on some forum had a Harbeth and AN and chose a single driver represents that one guy. Single Drivers have been around for decades - there is nothing particularly new here - I have auditioned quite a lot of them. I like them I get the appeal of them and I haven't closed the door to them in the future - tastes change.

Systems also play a factor - and one of the points made was about low level listening - an important aspect about the speaker but so too the type of equipment being matched.

 

murphythecat, I too found P3ESR's to be a bit bright in my space. I've stayed in that sorta-BBC monitor zone, and am currently very pleased with Graham LS35's being driven by Naim electronics.

 

yeah, interesting and ill try to audition a pair at a local dealer since I will be auditioning the audiovector and I thick he also have Omega. will report back

 

Bright? interesting, I find them pretty neutral and most importantly never harsh. Id argue my SHL5+ are birghter then my P3ESR...

 

hi
Ive heard two model of Omega in the weekend compared directly to my P3ESR. im afraid my opinion of fullrange driver still stay intact, Im not a fan. I can understand the appeal but I much much much preferred the P3ESR mid over the Omega's. no contest for me. the P3ESR were more refined, detailed, showing more depht, better soundstage.

Ive also compared the P3ESR to the Devore 093. I really liked the Devore. those are definitely more my cup of tea but they are however too pricey.

 

The drivers in my speakers are TPX, which is a precursor to the proprietary cone material used in these speakers. I've not spent as much time as I would like with paper and hemp etc. cone material speakers, but I know this light, fast plastic I can live with. They still fluctuate with temp/humidity, but it’s all fine.

 

I can respect that, everybody's taste are different. And the Omega's do take some getting used to before you start realizing their strengths and aspects. In Darko's review it took him a bit of time to get to know them as well, but once he caught on ... he got what they were all about.

In the opposite for me the Harbeth are too polite and the mid range is a little too caramel like in comparison (though if I didn't own single drivers I might not notice the slowness that much) and they have a more refined hi-fi sound. The Omega's are more like listening to live music, very grunty, more realistic tone and transparency, speed and imaging.

My tastes are more aligned with John Darko's review of the P3ESR here and likewise his review of the Omega hit the nail on the head for me.

Yeah those Os are pricey, I've never heard the 93's, but the cabinet finish is beautiful ... similarly the AN finishes are great as well.

 

have you tried p3esr next to omega?
I cannot agree that the omega sounds truer to the source or closer to live music, they imparted some kind of harshness/hardness to voices, something the devore or harbeth didnt do. I really dont mean to impose my opinion, just that my girlfriend and me were quite unanimous in our preference, always interesting to hear different opinions.

however, the P3ESR bass was terribly lacking compared to the audiovector qr3, devore or even omega. this is where im really happy to highpass my p3esr. this make them sound so much cleaner in the whole spectrum.

 

I need to add, my opinion of Omega are far from definite. I spent about 20 minutes top listening to those. id have to try in my house for a few days to make sure how id gel with them.

 

Thanks for posting the link to the John Darko review, I hadn't seen that one before. Having lived with the P3ESR for a couple months now I think the Darko review is very accurate and doesn't sugar-coat. Probably the most balanced review I've seen. The things the P3 does well, it does VERY well: Midrange (vocals, horns, strings), driver integration, imaging. Treble is sweet, never irritating. Sounds great near-field and at low volumes too. It's easy to position in a room and easy to integrate with a sub, whether full range or crossed-over. I've used it in two very different rooms with and without a sub and achieved good results each time. What the P3 doesn't do well is glossed over in some reviews, and I think that's because it's so seductive when played to its strengths that it makes you forget its weaknesses. Deep bass, big dynamics, speed and extreme detail are not its strengths. Unless used on a desktop or in a small office you'll want to consider adding a sub. For jazz, vocal and acoustic music however the P3 is sublime. Oh yeah

 

I am on a speaker quest, but couldn't make up my mind. I am set on getting a Proac Tablette 10 (heard and liked), but really want to hear the P3ESR first. The main concern is I will have to place the P3ESR 5" from a wall. But that John Darko review, saying the P3ESR is great for Jazz, vocal, and acoustics (which is 95% of my collection) is really making me very curious. And the final note that "Angus and Julia Stone fans will hit pay dirt" really makes me want to order one online without audition (big fan of Angus and Julia Stone, and similar music)!

 

Check this forum for posts by user "ls35a": New Proac Tablette 10 - same size as LS3/5a

He has both these speakers and said the Tablette 10 does better against a wall than the P3ESR. Harbeth recommends 1 foot clearance from the back wall.

 

Recently I listened to the P3ESR in a quasi-near-field setup and I highly recommend trying this to all the owners out there. Normally I sit about 7 feet from the plane of the speakers, which are themselves on stands placed 7 feet from each other. I was messing around with the placement of my chair and for fun I put it very close, like 3.5 feet, while keeping the speakers in their original position but toed in toward the new listening position. With the speakers still 7 feet apart I expected the centre image to collapse but -- holy cow batman! -- it didn't and the result was dramatic. The sound stage became wide yet instrument location was still rock solid and the overall clarity bested my previous listening position by a good margin. I'm guessing that listening so close up reduces negative effects coming from room interactions. With Dennis Drake's redbook mastering of "Clap Hands Here Comes Charlie" the realism of Ella's voice was astounding... I wanted to reach out and shake her hand. Give it a try!

 

I've heard room placement with the Omegas is critical

 

I know. its crazy how good they sound 3 feet away. for fun, try 5 feet wide, 3 feet away. the speakers dissapear, but not only that. the singer litterally seem to stand about 4-5 feet behind the speaker plane. spooky

 

I've played around with placement for them a lot, but that was just out of curiosity ... TBH I actually never struggled with them much at all and it probably took me less than 20 minutes of futzing to dial them into their current position in which they haven't moved in 4 years or so.

That said I feel my room is pretty good acoustically overall ~ even though I have about zilch as far as room treatments are concerned, just lots of furniture, records and shelves plus a big wool area rug. I have them placed about 10' apart and about 4' from the back wall to the front baffle on the speakers. I have them toed-in to just about where I can't see the inside of the cabinets and I sit about 10' feet away.

Some speakers that I did have some trouble with are the Decware ERR's (that's an Omni type speaker), those took a lot of futzing and they really like their breathing space ... I had to get them about 5-6 feet out into the room and away from any walls before they really showed what they could do. If you have the space they are pretty cool speaker design, but not for everyone though.