NPR: The 150 Greatest Albums Made By Women

True. It's why I can't take exception to many of the albums on the list. I don't know Missy Elliott at all for example but I know she's a big deal so I can't argue with her placing. On the other hand, I've never heard Dusty In Memphis and I know that's a big deal too ... so I feel I can at least express an opinion on relative placing.

 

Well, there is no such thing as "greatest album" and there are no criteria for determining it. It's entirely subjective and different people and different sets of people at different times make up different yardsticks by which they measure "greatness" and then stick a list in a hierarchy without really ever considering how the 114th album can be determined to be one notch greater than the 115th album but one notch less great than the 113th album. So, it's just a list of a group of people's opinion, designed, as expressly stated, to kind inspire a re-examination of the role of the work of women in popular music over the last 50 years or so. I don't think there's any reason to think about the list as anything more than that or anything less than that.

I don't know what age has to do with artistic achievement. Was Bach's St. Matthew Passion less great in April 1727 than it is today? It's the same piece of music. If it's great now it was great then. No?

 

It was indeed great then, but were people entitled to recognise it as such? The time test gives people confidence that the decision they're making today has been agreed by many earlier listeners.

The example that always hits me with this is the issue of Q that said that OK Computer was the greatest album of (I forget which, the 20th Century or something) the year after it came out. I thought that was a bad call: now it at least looks like a position you could make a case for. So they were 'right' then, but they were playing fast & loose with their credibility.

On the list we're talking about here I've already said that it's a bit soon to place Adele so high. But I dislike Amy Winehouse (sat through that whole documentary and wasn't convinced) and placing her in the top ten does not seem absolutely ludicrous to me because her reputation is already looking pretty resilient.

 

Well, that's my point. Why then call it "The Greatest Albums Made By Women"?
It's just typical click bait. What makes these records the "greatest"? Because these 50 ladies said so? They don't even really qualify why no men were asked to vote, or what parameters the voters had to follow other than 1964 or later (only two Joni albums allowed!) It's really "150 Albums That 50 Women Like". No more, no less.

Hey, Milli Vanilli was thought to be great when they first hit too, right? Won a Grammy and everything. This is all purely subjective anyway. If it's your list, by all means, put whatever you want in there. For me personally, I have to live with a record for a while before it cracks the upper echelons of my personal greatest album of all-time list.

 

Personally I don't find it all that meaningful to call things the "greatest" in a list like this, but it is a) useful -- the list has a kind of polemical purpose: to get people to re-examine the last 50 years of pop music history in the context of looking at the work and role of women in it; and b) does reflect a degree of contemporary critical consensus, which may only tell you really what contemporary critical consensus is, something, like all opinion, that's subject to change. It's not like Lemonade, which seems to be the album on the list that's sparked the most vehement contention in this thread, is not a great album according to contemporary critical consensus.

Why have only women vote? Well, because the list is presented as a kind of corrective or at least alternative history, and we all know that history to date has largely been written by men, and that women may have a different perspective on and response to the artistic work of women than men do. Seems like a perfectly reasonable notion to me to have a list of great works by women selected by women as a piece of editorial opinion writing, and as a piece of polemical writing.

 

It is a solid album, and certainly a turning point for Beyonce.

I don't doubt its inclusion on the list. It's a bit high for my rankings, mostly because it's so new.
(I see this has been debated elsewhere upthread, but I do think that time gives a better perspective, especially if one is comparing to other art, as is being done here.)

I have more doubts about Adele's inclusion on the list - especially at a significantly higher ranking than, say, Dusty In Memphis.

 

It's a shame Cibo Matto's 1999 album Stereo ★ Type A didn't seem to make this list.

Stone classic, regardless of gender.

 

Any kind of list like this is just a snapshot of a certain consensus opinion among a certain group of people at a certain time and place. What it really tells you is about is consensus critical opinion at that moment. 100 years from now consensus critical opinion is sure to be different, and not only because there's will be 100 years of new work to consider but also because old work will have a new and different life (or death) in that time and place, there's sure to be stuff not on that list at all that will gather influence and reputation over time, and other things that will slip. But for me I don't think that disqualifies contemporary work from being considered alongside older work if you're going to sit down and make a list like this. In fact, it make it more fun and interesting. I mean, anyone can just kind of record consensus opinion about established classics.

 

Joni's Blue is a complete artist's conception: Joni wrote the songs, performed the songs, and had strong ideas about how they were to be arranged. It's also a terrific album of songs that have stood the test of time, and an album with a coherent vision/sound. It is everything that I would demand of any album that I would place in a top N.

You might argue whether it's Joni's best album, but it's an album undeniably worthy of inclusion on a list of the best albums made by women. And it is, although arguably, justified at number one.

 

Thanks. While I agree with every word written, it doesn't change the inexplicable reason I'm feeling the way I am. Hence, my initial post. It will hit me at some point, I'm sure.

 

We agree about that, but when it comes to placing these lists (as I do with my personal lists) a certain amount of weighting seems prudent. I think Ani Difanco's Evolve is a sensational album: it'd be inside my top fifty for these purposes and I'd be proud to include it but there are limits to how high I'd push it when the other albums inside that list are as uncontroversial as Blue or The Dreaming or New York Tendaberry or Boys For Pele or The North Star Grassman And The Ravens.

 

Was that a special message from your avatar?

 

The main thing I find strange about the list is the omission of stronger albums associated with some of the artists. Yes, there are some artists that didn't make the list that are head scratchers, but in a several cases, I think the artists that were chosen made better / more important records that were for some reason overlooked. Tidal by Fiona Apple is a great example. It's a fantastic album, but nowhere near as good as When the Pawn... I'd make the same case with some of the Aretha Franklin choices. No list is perfect, obviously, as it's all subjective; this one just seems really weird in spots.

 

What a solid list of recordings ! . That said, I was disappointed there were not any Holly Cole recordings on the list. Specifically, I'd hope to see Holly Cole's "Girl Talk" recording on that list as not only is it an amazing piece of music, it was very well recorded and has very rich sound to it. It was recorded live to two-track using a single microphone and as such it has the true feeling of a live recording (ex audience sounds) and sounds amazing

 

What can be the reasons why there are a lot more black artists on this list than on other best albums lists? Especially in the top 20.

 

I like June Christy, She made a few minor west coast jazz hits. However...She wasn't no Ella and she definitely wasn't no Nina.

I think I missed Billy in that list, which if that's the case, that's my personal WTF moment.

Edit: I just say the part about the history of music beginning in 1964 so my bad. No Billy... Despite the fact she influenced pretty much every female jazz singer who ever lived...

 

I agree that that's useful (well, with the caveat that it should be more than 50 years), but when one is doing that, why not try to make it more wide-ranging and make sure that artists who had a lot of influence, who had historical importance, and/or who had a solid body of work behind them don't get left out, so that the list doesn't exclude people like Edith Piaf, the Andrews Sisters, Billie Holiday, Patsy Cline, Flora Purim, ABBA, Carla Bley, Joan Armatrading, etc.? If you have to, make it a bit longer and limit it to one album per artist.

 

I agree. Ann Powers's comments about women artists, women critics, and the rock-pop canon put the NPR list in context as a very vigorous act of criticism, one that might not be immediately evident among all the listicles out there: that this is not a specialty or "alternative" list, but instead a correction to the canon.

 

Billy Holiday died before 1964...which is when the list is supposed to start from.

 

Yeah I caught that on the rebound.

 

Well most other similar lists are extremely rockcentric. Not too many black women have made rock albums.

Also, the list is intended to offer a different narrative to the one informing those lists so naturally it contains different entries.

 

Did they stipulate that it should contain nothing prior to 64 (and if so, why?), or did it just turn out to not include anything prior to 64, and they're reporting that fact?

 

I have some of her stuff but I don't know much about her. I should prolly research it, but how is she influential? For the most part I have a tough time with her music, but I revisit it now and again because I think I should.

 

Surprised that the first Pretenders album only came in at #60. It is Top 5 in my book.

 

LOL... Dude, most of the people you mentioned ARE on that list.