Which way to jump on replacing digital sources and speakers?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by sotosound, Sep 14, 2017.

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  1. Mark broadhead

    Mark broadhead Forum Resident

    Location:
    Newcastle England
    Sounds like a good plan, though you can pick up any number of players to use as a transport for little money. You could probably pick up a used Lampizator DAC for under £ 2000.00 with USB connectivity. I feel sure you will hear a difference.

    NOS DAC's are a good way to go IMHO. Dusty always sounds good....
     
    Shiver likes this.
  2. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Sure, just keep the preamp and utilise it as your control for most actives. This gives you an opportunity to have a second system with the power amp! #helpful
     
  3. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Just seen a HiFi Pig review of the Big 7 and they praise it to the heavens but it sure is big!
     
  4. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    The last two nights have seen me doing some vinyl listening through the Red 150s , and the scale of male vocals has varied a bit according to the material, which it would, I suppose.

    The Series 7 power amp struggles a bit with LPs, however, and especially those with longer running times due to their lower volume.

    So I tried something out...

    I connected up my spare Arcam Delta 290 integrated and Edwards Audio MC1 phono stage in place of the Croft combo.

    Back came the missing mid-range depth along with more volume, more muddle and a less musical sound. In fact, my wife said that the Red 150s sounded like my MA GS60s. And she was right. With this set-up I could spend £4K to stand still!

    So either the Croft Series 7 power amp's 90W are a lesser type of Watts than the Arcam's 75W, or the Croft phone stage in the Micro 25 preamp is low on output - which is possible as I remember it being as loud as CD playback when I first acquired it three years ago.

    Tonight I therefore need to compare CD playback volumes as well.

    Oh, and I also worked out (at last) that the single of "In The Ghetto" by Elvis Presley has a dedicated mono mix. I could never work this out before but it came clearly to me last night via the Croft combo and those Red 150s.

    What this tells me is that: -

    1) The Red 150s are transparent to a lot of things and can be what I need if the amplification is right.

    2) That I need to check my amplification to see whether I need a new power amp or perhaps a new valve in the Croft RIAA phono stage in my preamp.

    So, a plan is coming together, i.e. sort out amplification (more cost but not sure how much as yet) and get my Rega Saturn repaired so as to give me a solid CD transport that can double as a stand-alone CDP (nice little saving).
     
  5. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Why not before any of that try a few CDPs/DACs with your Croft and MA speakers to get a feel for them with familiar gear? Presume your nearest dealer is Deco Audio? Have never been there but they seem to have a great range. I'd definitely suggest hearing some the valve/non-oversampling options if possible, such as Audio Note, and they also have Consonance who's CD2.2 Linear which seems intriguing and has a separate input for the DAC.

    Re the speakers (whether you bend to them before of after CDP), have Deco (if so) many other models you'd consider? It just seems preferable if you could find some that work with your 25/7. What about ProAc floorstanders? Checked their site and the Heretic Audio Huron 3 and Living Voice Auditorium R3R look interesting and both are also more efficient which might suit you.

    FWIW I tried the Red 50s with my Croft Integrated and didn't care for the sound tbh. Not sure of much of a mismatch, but the store owner said they can be fussy re amplification. Interestingly - and somewhat contrary to your findings with the SM100 - he also said he'd never heard the ProAc D2s sound so good as he had with the Croft, go figure (Still have them both and they sound sublime).

    Also, has the Saturn ever been really reliable? Enough to warrant a repair? I auditioned a Saturn R player and it failed to read some new, clean CDs, which put me right off tbh.

    Anyway, hope that's added to any confusion!
     
  6. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Hi Shiver

    Not at all. Please try harder! :)

    Not heard the Red 50s, but the Red 100s (courtesy of Deco) sounded good on my Croft kit back in the days of 45W/channel, albeit a bit short of bass heft and needing me to turn up the wick a huge amount due to their low efficiency. My friend would have married them, however!

    The Red 150s are also from Deco. :) Their Audio Note speakers are mainly the wrong way round for my lounge, i.e. shallow and wide. The Hurons can stand near the wall but they are soooo deep that I'd probably not be able to draw the curtains; and the Living Voice speakers need more space behind them than I can give them. ProAc didn't get a glowing recommendation apart from the SM100. :(

    I loved the ProAc Studio 148s in some ways but found that their treble quality wasn't good enough and if anything they were too bass-y for my lounge. Since they cost half the price of the Red 150s they can be excused. Great value for money speakers and great rockers.

    When my Saturn was in for a check-up recently (it was skipping on occasions), Deco lent me the CD2.2 Linear and it was brilliant with vocals but not quite so hot on rock and dance IMHO. So it would have to be a very expensive transport. :)

    DAC auditions will be happening, and I've had preliminary chats with Deco about this but I want them to be in the context of the new speakers since my current speakers aren't what any new DAC will end up being played through. (This is what both Deco and Audio T have advised. Speakers first.)

    (Tbh, I've stopped enjoying my own speakers due their relative lack of musicality compared to the speakers that I've auditioned recently. Not good for a music lover. Maybe I'll whip out my little Q Acoustics 2020is for a quick bass-free but superb mid-range experience.)

    The Saturn has always been a bit dodgy, but any new transport won't be programmable, and until I rip everything to a server I want to be able to programme tracks. If I get pee'd off with the Saturn I'll be able to sell it at a reasonable price after repair whereas right now it's worthless. :( I can also fall back on my old 20 year-old Rotel CDP if required.

    TBH, the Red 150s are superbly musical and they do dynamics brilliantly. It's just that they stretch the abilities of my Series 7 and they have slightly recessed vocals.

    I'll have another chat about speakers with Deco this afternoon when I return the Red 150s, get my Croft valves power-tested and leave my Saturn for repair.
     
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  7. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Just heard that the valves in my Croft kit are all roughly 50% down on output. Deco, who are checking this for me, are surprised at this because the valves in their Micro 25 demonstrator are fine, and their Micro 25 is probably older than mine.

    (This started because Peter at Deco sounded surprised when I talked about my Croft kit struggling with the Red 150s.)

    So, new valves, twice the output and start again.

    A really significant aspect is that the valve issue will also make vinyl playback quieter than CD playback because the RIAA phono stage has its own valve, meaning that phono output is 50% of 50%, i.e. 25% of what it should be.

    Sheesh!

    To be honest, I suspect that standmounts are out and it will therefore come down to getting those Red 150s back home again, along with an Audio Note DAC 0.1X. If this combo works well together, and if vinyl is good then I've got something to think about rather than to dither about.
     
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  8. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    Best to change only one component at a time to give yourself a period of time to understand how it fits in with your system. :)
     
  9. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Agreed. That's the advice that I've received from both retailers with whom I've been dealing. Since I'm borrowing kit for an audition, I might as well bring a DAC home along with the speakers, however.

    But, as per school chemistry experiments, never change more than one constituent at a time. So my listening will start with my newly fettled Croft kit put back into my existing system so as to create a fresh baseline for the audition.

    Then a speaker change will be next, since that will bring the most noticeable change, and since speakers are what I really want to change, and since both retailers say "Change your speakers first."

    Then, after a prolonger listen it'll be time to play with the DAC. :)
     
    Shiver likes this.
  10. JNTEX

    JNTEX Lava Police

    Location:
    Texas
    Simaudio has a couple of CD transport / DAC units in one box. I own the cheaper of the two. Very neat little unit...the DAC is very nice. Might see if one is available to demo near you.
     
  11. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Nice one Soto.

    Glad you followed up on the Croft and found the issue. Was striking me as odd otherwise. Keep us updated on how it now work with the 150s, and also the DACs! Great to have a dealer like that to work with hey.

    Interesting re the Cd2.2.
     
  12. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    So noted. Many thanks.

    DACs are physically easier to audition since I don't need to do a lot of hefting in and out of shops and back and forth in my lounge. Just a few cables to move around at worst.
     
  13. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I'll keep you tabbed.
     
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  14. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I’ve now got my Croft kit back. It was outputting 1.5V from the Micro 25 preamp instead of 3V when receiving 5 mV through the phono input, and the valve in the Series 7 was also weak. Therefore I was on less than half power for vinyl.

    In my Rega Saturn, one of the spring-loaded bearings in the CD mounting chuck had fallen out, meaning that discs were probably not correctly aligned with the laser, leading to difficulties in reading them. With the new laser assembly in place it’s all good and I’ve not had one bit of misbehaviour as yet. It also sounds nice. My engineer speculates that I might also get a slightly better sound due to the reduced need for error correction. Not sure about that as I can’t do an A-B comparison.

    When I collected by amps and CD player I also collected the Red 150s for a further audition but I’m now going to return them since I’ve worked out that they are not for me, even when properly driven.

    They do classical brilliantly and they do most acoustic material and vocally-orientated tracks brilliantly as well. Frank Sinatra and Frankie Valli are both highly believable, and Gordon Jenkins’ arrangement of “Autumn Leaves” by Frank Sinatra is a spine-tingling event from start to finish. The strings in the intro sound very cold but also very musical. On my MA GS60s, they just sound cold inasmuch as there is more focus on bow and string noise than the notes being played. The Red 150s take a more balanced approach. The harp therein is also nicely presented by the Red 150s.

    The Red 150s also do old mono recordings well and dig out loads of musical detail from that single point source. “Let’s Face The Music And Dance” by the Nelson Riddle Orchestra is fabulously dynamic and rhythmic. Hi fi? Never. More of an impressionist painting than a high-definition photograph. Enjoyable and repeatable? Yes! Absolutely!

    When it comes to modern danceable music and rock, however, i.e. where beats and bass and percussion drive tracks along, the Red 150s don’t kick a** like the GS60s. The bass is deeper than on the GS60s but it’s too clean, and the impact of bass on disco and Motown is lacking a bit of lower mid-range oomph. The Fatback Band, for instance, is missing a bit of fatback and thwack on “Are You Ready? Do The Bus Stop.” Also, the top end is slightly too clean, so the cymbals in the intro of “This Is What You Are” by Mario Biondi and the High Five Quintet are lacking pizzazz, and Mario’s voice is slightly smoother than one might wish.

    (Perhaps I just like hot treble and bass as a result of my old DJ-ing days. Dunno.)

    I finally made my mind up by having a Red 150 connected to the LH channel and a GS60 connected to the RH channel. Then I played the mono mix of “It’s Wonderful To be Loved By You” by Jimmy Ruffin (because it’s a nice clean mono mix with more than the usual amount of top and bottom in it for mono Motown) and I swung the balance from left to right and back again a few times.

    The GS60 gave me all of the oomph of the bass and drums and the sizzle of the tambourine, snare and cymbals etc., but Jimmy’s vocals were slightly recessed.

    The Red 150 toned down everything at the top and bottom but presented Jimmy’s vocals very well, albeit slightly smoother than expected. What it didn’t do is to move me to tap my toes or shake my groove thing or whatever.

    The GS60, however, made me want to do these things.

    So, the question is whether or not I can get a pair of speakers that walks a line somewhere in between, i.e. nicely detailed and not so toned down in terms of percussive sounds and grooving as the Red 150s but at the same time more musical and better at mid-range than the GS60s.

    Is this possible?

    And do I need to spend £4K to achieve this balance?
     
  15. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Cool re the Saturn and interesting re the Croft valves. Glad you found that out. Did you put the same or different replacement valves in the 25 and 7? If different, any notable changes?...albeit coming from failing ones.

    Have you heard or demoed Audio Note speakers at all? Deco stocks them. Designed primarily to work against walls or in corners, I gather, which might not suit.

    I'm going to demo some AZ-Three next month and will listen to some from J range too (will help room set up if I can find some that work in corners). From limited experience with hearing J-LX and E/SPe HE in an audio show, the Es were sublime (though out of my price range), and though the Js were also musical and engaging, there seemed a bit too much cabinet colouration at times. Will be interesting to try them though, not least with the Croft.
     
  16. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I'd previously ruled out Audio Note speakers because they either need to go into corners or they have a low-WAF shape. I have, however, been reviewing this on the basis that I might have to reconsider.

    What I will do is to put my MAs or the slighty smaller Red 150s (which go back on Friday) into the front corners of the lounge as best as I can without squashing the curtains and ask my missus what she thinks.

    If she's OK then that would open the door to testing the AZ-Threes. They might even be alright slightly away from the corners. The AZ-Twos are ruled out on the basis that Deco says that the AZ-Threes are better. Also, the the AZ-Threes are taller, which is good since the LH one would need to be able to fire over the settee arm if placed in the corner.

    Given that our lounge is only 11'4" wide, the J's only have BAF (Bloke Approval Factor) and not WAF, so I can't imagine buying them. With a really wide room or with them backed onto the long wall it might have been different.
     
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  17. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    TBH, I've even started wondering whether or not MA GX300s would be an option.

    The perceived wisdom is that they won't be musical because they have ceramic-coated metal cones, but reviews suggest that this isn't the case.

    Those same reviews suggest that they are more mellow in tone than my GS60s and that they favour musicality over detail.

    They'd also certainly get WAF since they look rather nice.

    And I can't spend all of my life auditioning speakers.

    Geez, this isn't easy!
     
  18. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    All valves the same (JJ valves) apart from the valve on the buffered output of the Micro 25, which shouldn't impact the sound through the main output.

    The sound was different at the start. I felt that the treble was a bit lacking in detail, and that there was a consequent lack of airiness. This made vocals sound like a musical lump, with lots of musicality but a shortage of texture. This was noticeable through both the MAs and the Russell Ks. That's all sorted now that the valves have been run for a few hours.
     
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  19. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    No experience with the larger MA speakers, but the GX300s look/seem good.

    Do let us know if you try any AN speakers. I'll feed back on the AZ-threes and Js next month. I'll also try the AZ-Two but from what I've read the Threes have less cabinet colouration (in a good way) and they use the superior tweeter form the J and E, so expect to prefer them. Also trying both paper- and hemp-coned versions.
     
  20. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Sounds as though you'll have some fun.

    I'll let you know how things go.

    Last night I had one last listen to the Red 150s. I played "That's Where The Happy People Go" by Trammps, complete with the slow piano and orchestra intro, firstly through the GS60s and then through the Red 150s.

    Through the GS60s everything was full-sized, including the piano, and when the main part of the track kicked off the drums had loads of thwack and the bass really pulsated along with loads of heft and welly. Also Earl Young's hi-hats sizzled along nicely and I bounced around on the settee. I noticed less musicality than the Red 150s give, however, and it was clear that what got me going was as much the noise, rhythms and beats of the track as the music.

    Through the Red 150s I got a bit more musicality but much reduced scale. The piano was clearly down-sized, for instance. The top-end was drier and the bottom end was also drier with more emphasis on the true bottom notes of the bass than anything else. Those real bottom notes aren't what drive the track, however, so I sat still and contemplated the track intellectually instead.

    Funnily enough, this is what I found when I first listened to the Red 150s in the listening room at Deco.

    If I was purely a fan of classical music, vocal music and classic music from the 50s then I might buy the Red 150s. For my tastes, however, and given that I also like some rock, soul and dance, they don't quite do it. They've shown me the musicality that my GS60s are short of but, then again, my GS60s have shown me that the Red 150s lack a bit of Biff Bam Pow.

    It might be that the Red 150s need more watts than I can give them or a different style of amp, but how far do you go when choosing new speakers?
     
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  21. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    i wouldn't go for separate transport & dac.

    The NAD 516 CD player sounds superb .And its only £250.
     
  22. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    sotosound, what do you mean when you use the word "musicality"? Can you flesh this out for us a little bit? Thanks!
     
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  23. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    It's the kind of thing that throws everyone. We each have our own idea of what this is but very tricky to meaningfully convey.
     
  24. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    HARBETH.
     
  25. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident Thread Starter

    In my mind, and to take an overly simplistic approach, I see the sound of a musical instrument as having two components: -

    1) The note or notes that are being played.

    2) The noises that accompany the notes and tell you what instrument is being played.

    If I listen to a violin, then there's a note being played, but there's also the sound of the bow on the string, any harmonics and noise from the string, and any harmonics and noise from the bridge, the neck, and the rest of the body etc.

    Musicality to me is all about getting a natural balance between (1) and (2).

    My MA GS60s tend to favour (2). Therefore, when I listen to the cold-sounding strings in the intro of "Autumn Leaves" by Frank Sinatra, I can hear the playing technique that provides the coldness but I can't hear enough of the notes that the strings are playing, i.e. there's too much (2) and not enough (1).

    The Red 150s achieve a far more natural balance, and the musical notes come across loud and clear alongside the impression of coldness. And this is what I need from music. If I can't hear notes and chords and harmonies then it's all just noise.

    Similarly, the MA GS60s tell me all about Frank Sinatra's nose and throat but not enough about his larynx.

    Does this make sense?
     
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