Superman II Directors Cut vs. Official version

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Keith V, Oct 22, 2017.

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  1. I've always liked Superman III a lot. The junkyard scene might be the single best scene in the entire Superman franchise. It's a wonderful moment that feels pulled directly from Superman's Silver Age glories in the comic books. I think if they had made Brainiac its villain, it would have been better received. I still can't believe we haven't gotten Brainiac in a real film version.

    I enjoy Donner's cut of Superman II but Lester's theatrical cut is the one I grew up with, and will always prefer. One of my favorite moments in the theatrical cut is lost in Donner's cut when Superman comes back to Metropolis and shows up at the Daily Planet outside the window, ready to square off with Zod and gang. John Williams' delightful musical cue is lost completely in Donner's cut, altering the entire impact of the famous "Kneel before Zod" line.
     
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  2. Keith V

    Keith V Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Secaucus, NJ
    And I prefer Lester’s “care to step outside” to Donner’s “ever hear of freedom of the press”.
     
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  3. From the alternate camera angles during the opening sequence with Marlon Brando sentencing the three villains to later alternate line readings, there's a reason none of this material was considered good enough for use back in 1978 when production came to an abrupt halt, and I'm still baffled as to why Richard Donner Michael Thau felt such a need to mess with the clearly superior takes as included in Dick Lester's original theatrical cut... or could it be the result of certain parties considering him the worst person to have ever lived for simply taking over the directing of Superman II? Yes, some of the scenes where the Kryptonians caused havok within the confines of mostly a small town weren't quite to the scale or level of menace Donner originally envisioned when they'd been scripted to take over the world, but the instances of lesser performances from Gene Hackman were chosen aren't so easy to justify when you consider who shot all these. The "care to step outside" line has far greater resonance to viewers because it's a play on the earlier confrontation that Clark had with the diner bully, showing Lois that Superman was truly back. As I've said before, a new combination of the best material from both directors needs to be assembled, preferably by a committee of knowledgeable fans and someone with good editing skills.
     
  4. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    Search for "Superman II: the Richard Donner cut redux" on the net. It's the closest thing we will ever get to a super cut that combines much of the best of both cuts...And cleverly divises an ending that is neither the turn back time Ending or the super amnesia kiss. It's pretty darn good.
     
  5. Dude111

    Dude111 An Awesome Dude

    Location:
    US
    Superman II is the BEST in the series to be honest.........

    I have it recorded from analogue cable :)
     
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  6. jupiter8

    jupiter8 Forum Resident

    Location:
    NJ, USA
    I was surprised when I saw the Donner cut how much of the campy humor was his-always assumed Lester was the culprit. I also liked the scene of Superman bringing the flag back to the White House- which I'd always wrongly assumed was a Donner moment. I'll always hate him going back to beat up the redneck in the diner.
     
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  7. Solaris

    Solaris a bullet in flight

    Location:
    New Orleans, LA
    I prefer the Donner cut but with mention above of the fan-made super cut, I'm going to look for that.
     
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  8. Uther

    Uther Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Such an odd shot. It's wonderful in its intent, but terrible in its execution. The superimposition over a still shot (watch the water fountain not move) makes it both great and inexcusable.
     
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  9. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    It's not perfect by any means, but if you can still find it ( and jump through the hoops to download it) it's pretty well done. The fan editor goes by the name " booshman" if that helps. I found it and burned a disc years ago but for the life of me I can't remember the whole process. I recall it being a pain, but I'm glad I did. To this day it's my canon version of II.
     
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  10. Booshman's fan edit is indeed one of the better ones out there (though still not perfect - I didn't like the trimming of certain scenes), but I suspect the cut pitched to WB by someone known only as Selutron would be the definitive treatment if this ever leaked. The person responsible has supposedly abandoned this project because executives liked their work, yet didn't want to push forward with an official version for several reasons. My understanding is that they were looking to remake the entire thing in HD with completed effects shots, preferably creating new background elements where these had previously been digitally inserted from other movies, which naturally required a large amount of financial investment. Naturally, there's only so much than can be done without a professional budget, and it looks as if we'll now be stuck with a few preview clips as a tease of what could have been. The proposed ending was quite inventive, and I love how the villains were made into a much bigger threat, keeping in line with Donner's vision...
     
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  11. Sondek

    Sondek Forum Resident

    What does Reeve do?
     
  12. Keith V

    Keith V Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Secaucus, NJ
    At 4:30

     
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  13. Sondek

    Sondek Forum Resident

    Ah yes, I remember now. Thanks.
     
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  14. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    Not only are the theatrical versions of both Aliens and Terminator 2 far from worthless in comparison to their extended counterparts, I actually rate those shorter, tighter, more concise versions as the definitive versions... the 'new' scenes added are interesting for sure, but the fact the films worked just as well - if not better in most cases - without them says it all.

    The Abyss' extended version, however, is without a doubt the definitive version... end of discussion.

    The so-called 'Richard Donner Cut' of Superman II is itself a misleading term, it wasn't Donner's cut because he never finished filming that movie, so it's a physical impossibility for it to be what he intended... it should have been called 'the Michael Thau Cut' as that's who really put it together (ditto the useless 'Special Edition' of Superman: The Movie in 2001).

    Whilst it was nice to see the Brando scenes in II, and the scene where Lois jumps out the window at the Daily Planet was interesting and fun too, ultimately neither were enough to justify that restored version's existence, considering it's less an alternate version and more a glorified DVD extra.

    Richard Lester's version is the definitive and frankly only legitimate version (in my humble opinion); it has it's minor flaws for sure, but my, has it held up well over the years as a successful sequel to a landmark film... I would love to have seen Donner's completed version of II but alas, it was never to be - I don't think he ever would have come back anyway, especially when the Salkinds' made the decision to cut Brando out because of his lawsuit - and Lester's version does certain things arguably better than Donner's would have done them (judging by the script that the latter was working off at the time).

    Hoping for a lovely new 4K UHD release of Lester's theatrical cut of II someday...
     
  15. There was a time when I'd have welcomed every last additional second of footage I could get my hands on, but I've since moved back to the opinion that the theatrical cuts of STM and II remain the best for very different reasons. Donner never approved the recent three-hour TV version of STM, which was something the Salkinds threw together so they could turn the film's broadcast into an even bigger event than it would have otherwise been, the resulting extravaganza spread over two days on some networks. I can still remember when the extended DVD arrived in 2001, though none of the extra material really holds up - we might get to see Brando again in a short scene, but it's mostly unnecessary to the overall story. As for II, so much of my earlier disdain for Lester's cut was the result of pro-Donner bias, which has thankfully since mostly dissipated. Despite once being Donner's go-to editor, I see that Michael Thau has (rightly) gone back to cutting for TV now. That guy was absolutely the wrong choice to edit the STM 2001 edition and the cut of II bearing Donner's name, although I can understand his presence was a way of getting Donner on board in the first place. Indeed, I recall a video once doing the rounds that mocked his excessive use of cross dissolve transitions and looping the same musical cue in the so-called Donner cut. If only Stuart Baird had been available and willing to revisit the project, along with John Williams...

    In terms of the other sequels, III has a longer TV version that remains my favourite, though I can appreciate that its extra scenes aren't entirely necessary. If anything, some might have kept off the Special Edition DVD and more recent Blu-ray due to concerns from WB or DC, since there was one implied action I can think of that may be a step too far in retrospect. While there was a slightly longer cut of IV, I'm still hoping we'll eventually get a full restoration of the complete work print, or at least the one scene missing from the last expanded reissue. If my understanding is correct, the only reason we've still yet to see the Metro club sequence is because of licensing issues with its soundtrack. However, this was later sorted out in time for the complete score - complete with contemporary music - to be released as part of a comprehensive boxed set via Film Score Monthly. There hasn't been a further version of IV since then, though I'm hoping it would be possible to include this one last key scene, preferably as part of a new anthology that will contain all of the various Superman cuts. I know these last two are serious long shots, but perhaps they could even finally get Bryan Singer to provide a commentary track for Superman Returns, and I'm sure plenty would be interested to see the mythical Zack Snyder cut of Justice League, even though I question the existence of this. At the very least, a Man of Steel commentary featuring Snyder, David S. Goyer and Christopher Nolan would be great, though I've read that the latter is reluctant to offer such a feature on any of his work, preferring instead to keep moving forward.
     
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  16. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    I completely disagree, but this is a Superman II thread, so I don't want to go off on that tangent.
     
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  17. Rick Sanchez

    Rick Sanchez Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Tokyo
    Thank you for the heads up. I will need to locate these on the interwebs.
     
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  18. For those who've not yet seen it, here's Selutron's (very rough) proposed ending to Superman II, as pitched to WB a few years back:

     
  19. FredV

    FredV Senior Member

    I have a fan edit of both versions of “Superman II’ which includes the best moments of the two films which I prefer watching to the original and the Donner version, which I felt repeated too much elements from the first film.

    I also have a fan edit of Superman III and IV which completely eliminates all the Richard Pryor scenes and integrates the best moments from both films, making it a much more pleasurable viewing experience.
     
  20. I can see why Warner rejected it
     
  21. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    Superman II doesn't need a new ending - and certainly not a ludicrous 'Jor-El in the sky' one like above - I have no problem whatsoever (and never did) with the so-called 'magic kiss' ending in the theatrical cut as is; it's canonical with the comics (if you care about that, which frankly I don't), it has a really touching and tender performance from Reeve and Kidder, and it ties up the loose end of Lois' and Superman/Clark's relationship in a neat little bow... what is people's problem with that scene in general?

    Which film is that last scene from? It would have made a lovely ending to II actually (I'd even ditch Clark's return to the diner for that ending!), especially Lois' last line and Clark's reaction to it.

    Superman: The Movie and Superman II - theatrical versions on both - just so perfectly captured the essence of that character, as did Chris Reeve's magnificent performance, it's any wonder every new television and film adaptation since still lives under the shadow of those two films... and none have come even remotely close to matching much less exceeding them, it has to be said.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  22. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    That scene with Clark and Lois at the Daily Planet I mentioned... it is the ending to II, from the Donner Cut, right??? I think I remember it now... man, I forgot that scene completely... it's so good...

    Damn the Salkinds' for firing Dick Donner and cutting Brando from II.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  23. Time Is On My Side

    Time Is On My Side Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Richard Donner Cut for me.
     
  24. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    I don't mind them using Suzanna York's Lara for II, but there was a way to include both her and Brando. I would love to see a fan cut that incorperates both.
     
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  25. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    I have no problem in principle with Lara being in II over Jor-El if it was deemed the correct creative decision to do so, but it was because of 1) Brando suing the Salkinds' for money the very week that Superman: The Movie hit theaters, and 2) the Salkinds' being too damn greedy to pay Brando what he was contractually obligated to receive for his services, despite the fact they agreed to Brando's terms when they signed him in 1975.

    And without Brando, the central father-son relationship started in the first film is left unresolved, to the film's detriment, alas... and that's why I believe Richard Donner would never have ultimately returned to finish II... once the Salkinds' would have told him that Brando was out for financial reasons, Donner would have walked tout suite and Lester would have finished it as happened.

    I have honestly no interests in any fan-cuts of II; I like Lester's theatrical cut just fine - I'd personally trim out some of the more overt campy humor and add the scene with the Arctic Police at the end, but other than that, I'd leave it as is, basically the running time would remain the same - whilst the so-called 'Donner Cut' is an interesting curio but ultimately an unfinished and uneven one, a glorified DVD extra masquerading as a legitimate alternate cut.

    A new 4K transfer/UHD Blu-ray release of Lester's theatrical cut of II and close the book on that film.

    :tiphat:
     
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