SACD / DVD-A player recommendations and some related questions

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by VU Master, Nov 17, 2017.

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  1. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
  2. caupina

    caupina Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    If it's a hybrid SACD you are getting the PCM out of the CD layer but if you play a single layered SACD I'm quite sure you won't get anyyhing via optical (again as far as DSD goes or any other hi res codec for that matter)
     
  3. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Your statement is incorrect! It is the full resolution SACD layer that is played over the optical output, and feeling like I need to reinforce the point as there seems to be some confusion on the capabilities of an HDMI audio extractor, it also works with single layer SACD's. I should add that HDMI audio extractors are not restricted to optical, you can but ones with coaxial outputs or even both.
     
  4. caupina

    caupina Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    Ok so explain this to me 'cause I'm kind of confused here, you're saying that if you play a single layered SACD (DSD only) through a HDMI extractor, you get the full resolution out the optical???...well I was under the impression that was not possible...my apologies if my posts were inaccurate and/or misleading.
     
  5. tootull

    tootull Looking through a glass onion

    Location:
    Canada
    I'm using it primarily to play DVD-A 5.1, and for streaming. I've been pleasantly surprised by the DVD up-scaling.


    This post nails it:
    For the price of $150 its the deal of the century for people with AVRs that can handle the digital to analog conversion there.
    SONY UBP-X800 universal player
     
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  6. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I'm a bit confused here as well. So you are saying that when using an HDMI audio extractor you get full DSD resolution from an SACD from the SPDIF output of the HDMI audio extractor?
     
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  7. caupina

    caupina Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    I'm scratching my head just like you Bill...where's Kal when we need him??? :D
     
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  8. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    I was always under the impression that HDMI audio extractors output PCM only. Is the HDMI Extractor carrying 88.2K / 24 bit PCM down converted from DSD rather than DSD?
     
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  9. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    Might be helpful to get some of the contributors to the old HDMI de embedder thread here. I spent a fair amount of time looking at it as a possible means of extracting audio from SACD before going for the Oppo approach and I am sure they output PCM.
     
  10. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Sorry. I have never used any of the extractors (IIRC) because of their format constraints.
     
  11. caupina

    caupina Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    Fair enough but in your experience does it make any sense what scobb is saying (or should I say, implying)???
     
  12. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Seveflurane is correct! It is 24bit 88.2k PCM output over optical. I'm not sure I would describe that as down converted though? It isn't perfect but it is still full resolution and the same as most older universal players outputted via their analogue outputs. It is exactly the same conversion that my Arcam DV137 does over analogue (and the DV139) for SACD playback.

    Given the OP questions and system I think this would be perfectly adequate for multi channel playback?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  13. caupina

    caupina Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    Ok so I was right on the money then. you don't get the full SACD resolution as you were stating instead you get PCM.
     
  14. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Your original statement suggested it was the CD layer I was listening to. That statement was incorrect! It is full resolution SACD output as PCM rather than DSD!

    I should add that this is not something I use my HDMI audio extractor for as I have a Yamaha CD S3000 which plays SACD's. I do use the HDMI audio extractor for DVD-A and Blu ray audio (upto 24bit 192khz via optical)
     
  15. caupina

    caupina Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    Well here's where the confusion on my part lies...full resolution SACD is not PCM, is DSD (for me at least, others may differ but the way I see it SACD = DSD)
     
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  16. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Then you maybe surprised to learn that there are many SACD and "Universal" players that convert DSD to PCM over analogue.
     
  17. caupina

    caupina Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    N
    Not surprised at all and I'm not trying to be argumentative, my point being that it is my understanding that full resolution SACD means transmission of native DSD not PCM and as such it can't be transmitted over optical, that's all.
     
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  18. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    No you would be incorrect. As far as I know full resolution SACD is native DSD not PCM. So when an HDMI audio extractor is used DSD is down converted to PCM.
    Not sure about other SACD players but the two Oppo players I own (103 and 105D) when set to DSD it's converted to analog without a DSD to PCM conversion.
    Not when Oppo players are set to DSD. Below is from page 62 of the Oppo 103.

    DSD– SACD Direct Stream Digital (DSD) data is output over HDMI without any conversion. For the analog audio outputs, DSD data is converted into an analog signal directly by the internal DAC. If you use a receiver that supports HDMI v1.2a with DSD over HDMI, or you prefer the sound quality of straight DSD to analog, please select this option.

    http://download.oppodigital.com/BDP103/BDP-103_USER_MANUAL_English_v1.8.2.pdf
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
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  19. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I think we are talking semantics here, yes SACD is "native" DSD (I'm not suggesting it isn't) however converting it to PCM is not down converting it in terms of resolution (my claim). I am aware that the Oppo and all other players based on the chipset play native DSD however many many SACD players, universal players and AVR's receiving DSD via HDMI convert DSD to PCM before converting it to analogue. I am not suggesting the conversion is ideal and yes playing a disc in it's native format should always produce better results, however, I don't think anyone would be able to tell the difference in a $400 AVR, especially in surround sound.

    I'm pretty sure that when you are using Dirac that your processor is converting DSD to PCM so it can process the sound?

    The other sidepoint is that there is much debate as to whether or not DSD is even better than PCM! That is why there was the DVD-A vs SACD war in the first place.
     
  20. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I have only skimmed, not read, this thread. Ask me a question and, if I can, I will answer.
     
  21. Uri Cohen

    Uri Cohen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jacksonville, FL
    Do you really need surround and DVD-A Support? Marantz got the SA8005 SACD/CD Player on clearance for $899.99, and it isn't bad at all!
     
  22. VU Master

    VU Master Senior Member Thread Starter

    Sheez, after reading the posts above I don't feel quite to bad about my own little confusions about 5.1 decoding... :o

    Speaking of which, I grabbed a used passive Coleman 5.1 switch on ebay, ordered a new UDP-203, and am making up 18 good quality cables for my new setup. I hope to fire it up by the end of next week and will let you all know how it works out.

    OK, that's it from here, carry on...
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
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  23. bradman

    bradman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lexington,KY
    You're right, the player has no analog outs, so the AVR does the conversion to analog. No DACs needed.
     
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  24. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    Sorry, worded my post badly. I was meant to be talking about the use of HDMI de embedders rather than the output of the Oppo itself. I have mine set to convert DSD straight to analogue. It’s the HDMI de embedder that can’t output DSD.

    It is possible to modify an Oppo with the Audiopraise Vanity mod such that the analogue outputs are converted to SPDIF outputs, and that mod can be configured to output DoP (DSD over PCM), but we’re getting obscure now!
     
  25. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Semantics maybe but earlier you were indicating that Caupina was incorrect when in fact he wasn't. I've never used an HDMI audio extractor nor do I have the need to. As far as which players play DSD direct or do a DSD to PCM conversion really isn't relevant to that IMO. HDMI audio extractors can't skirt the issue of SACD (DSD) copyright (correct term?) protection by being able to pass native DSD out of SPDIF or coaxial. That is what Caupina and I were questioning. I'm far from an expert on this but do know that to be correct.

    You are correct in that when using Dirac DSD is converted to PCM. When listening to multichannel SACDs I set the Oppo to PCM as the Emotiva XMC-1 processes DSD directly so Dirac is bypassed. When listening to stereo SACDs I use the DSD setting and analog connections at most times.

    Sure there is a debate on whether DSD or PCM sounds better. But again that wasn't the issue that both Caupina and I were questioning.
    Not a problem! I had a feeling that was what you meant but wasn't sure. If you have the Oppo why the need for the HDMI audio extractor? I'm assuming it's so you can use an outboard DAC. I've seen mention of the Vanity mod but it's way over my head :help:! I'm happy with the DACs in the 105D, definitely not the end all of DACs but works fine for me :).
     
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