What MC cartridge are you running ($750 or less)

I believe your Cinemag is 1:10 step up, correct? (making your PTG 3.0mv into the Budgie).

Budgie is a good preamp... lots of different settings from what I have read. I thought about getting one before getting a Lounge LCR / Copla setup for MC. The Copla is not a SUT technically, it is and active step up amp, not passive like a Cinemag. It works well with both my AT33Mono, and DL-103 (it was designed around the 103).

From the designer of the Copla, Robert Morin: "Copla is a moving coil step-up amplifier designed to drive a moving magnet phono pre amp. It is the active electronic equivalent of a step-up transformer (SUT), allowing control of active moving coil impedance. One dial provides variable added richness and dimension to the response of your moving coil cartridge. You use it like a Tone knob."

Notice I already have a cartridge from the AT 33 series - the Mono. Great cartridge, cost my $300.... so I am already a believer the 33 series like the PTG are great cartridges.

Thanks for all your detailed replies!

 

Zu Denon DL-103 and regular Denon DL-110. To my ears, in combination with the Denon DP-60L deck, the 110 sounds better, bigger soundstage and dynamics, and all-around pleasing cart for less than half the cost of the Zu Denon 103.

 

The DL-110 is a great cartridge, IMHO one of the better values going, I have used it on the SL-1200, GT-2000 - and both in MM and MC and it excels in every case. With a 1:10 SUT, the DL-110 might (probably will) overload most MM's though - but with my active step up Lounge Copla, it does not.

Just curious - for the DL-103 - are you using a SUT? Are you running the stock arm on the Denon DP-60L? Straight or S? (I know the 60L come stock with BOTH arms - other later ones did not).

 

The 103 I run into 65 db phono pre, no SUT. The DP-60L I run with stock S-arm, but I'm not too thrilled by it, and would love to swap the arm for something better, if such a thing is possible.

 

Danomar - one question if you enlighten me - in a couple of posts you mentioned the lighter mass tonearm you are using - do you know the effective mass of the tonearm you are using with the PTG/ii?

 

I'll give you the resonance calculation based on my Micro Seiki DD-40 with MA-505 tonearm, though I haven't verified it with measurement yet...

Tonearm effective mass with standard headshell: 14g
AT33PTG/II weight with hardware: 6.9g + 1.8g (measured weight for the long screws)
AT33PTG/II dynamic compliance: 10×10-6cm/dyne (100Hz) - estimate around 17×10-6cm/dyne @ 10Hz

Plugging the numbers above into the resonance checker at Vinyl Engine, I get around 8-9 Hz, which is in the green zone.

 

Yup. With a 14g effective mass and the PTGii, it's great. With my 22g effective mass YA-39, it is 6.9Hz. Not in the green zone at all. In fact, 10hz should be the optimal target, but I have seen 8-12Hz as a guideline, more 9-11Hz in others opinion.

Even if I put a 7g headshell on there it does not change much - as you know changes in headshell weight is not a linear relationship to effective mass. So, going 6g lighter on the headshell is NOT going to decrease the effective mass by 6g. How much is a hotly debated topic and seems to be elusive, but we do know it is not linear.

I see you are using the 1.75 multiplier for the 100Hz to 10Hz conversion - same one I am using. I have seen, again, anywhere from 1.5 -2.0 recommended, but like you I split it down the middle and use 1.75.

What is interesting - the DL-103 (5 @ 100Hz) with my 22g effective mass - is REALLY CLOSE to 10Hz - almost perfect. Also, AT33Mono I have at 6 @100Hz is 9ish also. This bears out also - the AT33Mono was noisy at the start of the record and between songs on my 12g efective mass SL-1200, now it is near dead silent with the GT-2000 YA-39 tonearm.

What is funny, the first three cartridges I put on the YA-39, and the ones I own for MC, are the DL-103, AT33Mono, and the DL-110. Turns out they are all GREAT for my tonearm - I did not even know this when I purchased it, guess someone somewhere was looking out for me. The DL-110 although at 8 @ 100Hz makes up for it by being only 4.8g, then combine an 8g headshell and you are back close to green zone at around 8.5hz - and it sounds great on the YA-39.

So there is something real in my experience with the formula - 159 / ((sqrt( Eff Mass + hardware + cart weight) * compliance @ 10hz). Never perfect, and sometimes translating to real life the results are not always so rigid - but from what i am finding this is a great guideline.

I do know one thing - the OC9/iii with its 18 @ 100Hz, and 31.5 @ 10hz is an absolute TERRIBLE match for my YA-39 at 22g effective mass. Comes out to 5.08Hz. The OC9/iii is truly a high compliance cartridge, and you better have a low effective mass tonearm. Turns out, not so bad a match with the SL-1200!!!

INteresting stuff. Good to see someone else using the "calculator". By the way, for the rest of you that might be wondering - the vinyl engine calculator / table - that formula above is what is behind the cells / numbers you are reading.

 

On my Music Hall MMF-7, a Denon DL301 mkII on to an Icon Audio PS2 all tube phono stage.

On my Kenwood D-5070, an Audio Technica AT33EV on to a Vincent Pho-8 phono stage. I've also run this cartridge with a Kenwood D-700.

 

Hana SL owners - what is the compliance of the Hana SL - I looked around and did not find any compliance numbers on Needle Doctor, AA, nada.... do you have the compliance numbers at either 10Hz or 100Hz?

Also, if any Hana EL owners have this also, much appreciated.

 

On the US distributor site the compliance figure is 10 µm/mN, no frequency specified.

 

i don't see a traditional compliance spec. They do list trackability as 70 um/2Gr.

 

The units of um/mN should signify it is in 10Hz, the 100Hz numbers are typically in cm.

But I don't want to assume - I have seen these units used incorrectly. Plus, this would mean like 6 in the 100Hz scale, which makes it a low compliance cartridge, like the DL-103 at 5. (which for me is not a bad thing - good actually).

EDIT: In fact, for my 22g effective mass YA-39, the Hana SL is a great match according to the numbers at 9.5hz - real close to 10!! Also just checked the Hana El on the same site, and it is also listed at 10um / mN - so another perfect match. Interesting. Now, we know the numbers and real life are two different things - but from my experimentation so far, these numbers do bear out results....

 

We talked about it some in this thread, partly fact and partly conjecture, as is often the case with cartridge specs ... Hana EH with Pro-ject 9cc carbon tonearm.

 

You da man Davey! I will have a read.... also realizing sometimes they list dynamic, then static - so it can be easy for some to get confused.

 

Um, yeah.... that link just confused the issue - one poster said the dynamic compliance was **20** or double what the spec at the US Distributor link....

10 and 20 are completely different ballparks for matching... in fact not even in the same zip code.

So now I wonder what are the facts ma'am for the Hana specs.... kind of lacking on information on my searches.

 

Well, I think 10 is the 100Hz compliance (normal for most JPN cartridges) and 20 is at 10Hz, per that distributor page, but who knows? That Yamaha tonearm is pretty heavy, I'm surprised is has that much effective mass, you may need something with lower compliance than the Hana, though you do make up for it a little since it's a lightweight cartridge. Is the Hana in the range of cartridge weights the Yamaha can use?

 

That makes sense, especially if you hold to the x2 multiplier from 10 - 100Hz. Usually the 100Hz numbers are given in cm / dyne, and the 10Hz numbers are um / nM so no wonder the published data is confusing.

I am going to assume it is a high compliance cartridge until proven different - not ultra high like the OC9/iii.

BTW the OC9ML/ii is a completely different animal than the OC9/iii - the ii is 9 cm / dyne at 100Hz, or HALF what the OC9/iii is. The ii is still a tad on the low side at under 8Hz for my 22g effective mass YA-39 - but with a light 7g-ish headshell it would be right in there at the low end of the green range.

Again, how important are these numbers? Guidelines of course, but given what I have found out from my own experimentation I would not buy a cartridge to match a tonearm if it were calculating as 5hz... like the OC9iii does on my tonearm.

Thanks Davey.

 

2nd system Ortofon quintet black S into a Vertere PHONO 1

 

[QUOTE="Davey, post: 17601546, member: 2324"'I'm surprised is has that much effective mass, you may need something with lower compliance than the Hana, though you do make up for it a little since it's a lightweight cartridge. Is the Hana in the range of cartridge weights the Yamaha can use?[/QUOTE]

I realized I did not answer this in my prior response.

Yup, the YA-39 on the GT-2000 is 22g effective mass. Have you seen one of these monsters - it is a 60+ pound TT, so everything is "big" on it. The optional / replaceable YA-1 tonearm is 26g effective mass!

Hana - even though a light cartridge at 5g, if the dynamic compliance is truly 10 cu at 100hz, then it is most likely around 17.5 cu at 10hz. So:

159 / ((sqrt(22g + 1g + 5g) * 17.5) = 7.18HZ - on the fringe so it would probably sound good, but definitely not in the green zone.

Even with a lighter cartridge - lets say you went to a 7g cartridge instead of the stock 13g cartridge on the YA-39. First, a 6g lighter cartridge would not decrease effective mass by 6g, it is not a linear relationship. The true number is not something I have found consensus on - but lets say it reduces it to 19g effective mass:

159 / ((sqrt(19g + 1g + 5g) *17.5) = 7.60g. -- so when someone tells you "just reduce the headshell weight" realize the impact on resonance is not all that great... has some effect, but does not get the dramatic effect you would think.

But it is approaching the edge of the green zone. Like i mentioned earlier, I have never heard the music "on paper", these are just guidelines for matching. Problem is cartridges are so expensive we need a yardstick, we can't just buy them and try them.

A cartridge that gets me even closer is the AT-F7 - it is also 5g, but 9 cu, so it edges a little closer to the fringe of the green zone. Not a bad cartridge, but the Hana, PTG would be much better quality wise, which is a factor.

 

Goldring Eroica LX ------>LP12 Nima Arm with sKale weight and Yannis cable------> Phonoclone with dual mono psu