Subwoofer gurus, can you spare a minute?

just to complicate things... there is a system out now with 5 subs and some processing that is said ot avoid a lot of the pitfalls of having 1 sub, or just 2 subs, and to greatly reduce setup time

unfortunately, I forgot the name of it...

 

Oh that is hilarious! Reminds me of the Ford "Sound Symposer" or BMWs "Active Sound Design" or Lexus' various sound tubes (Porsche also)

 

Ah, reminds me I once gifted my best friend a TEAC CD player for her wedding. They loved it, maybe still have it. Some observations:
- Good call with the sensitive Klipsch speakers. Makes me very curious to hear them...are you near downtown LA perchance?
- If your system is not straining, yeah, you can add a sub a fool with the lowpass frequency.
- I agree a good $500-600 should be more than adequate...but if you have the space it doesn't hurt to go Gonzo, a great sub is a great sub which maybe you'd repurpose in the future.
- Experiment if you like it better with the port plugged (when you plug/unplug you may have to fiddle with the crossover setting)
- Ya gotta keep the TEAC because hey it was a gift. But if you want to "cheat" in the future, you could plug an Oppo UDP-203 into it. It has an additional input AND bass management so essentially you have the Oppo as a preamp while still "using" the TEAC (or maybe the TEAC "graduates" to some other room...or maybe it's fine and you leave it all alone)

 

Good catch! Don't use the speaker level outputs to the sub. Use the sub pre-amp out. That's what it's there for.

 

If one has an AVR or prepro with a sub preout(s) then there is no reason to use speaker level outputs. The way to go without a doubt!

 

Didn't he say there was no bass management in his AVR? If so, it would def take a lotta strain off the amp to use speaker level outputs. Though he also stated he heard no straining in his speakers. But if it was me, I'd prefer to not send signals to the speakers that they can't handle.

 

Not sure. My post was in general.

 

C'mon Bill, focus on the topic at hand! (j/k buddy)

But you would agree that sans bass management, there is good reason to use sp lvl inputs- yes?

 

Sorry Jim how could I wander off topic like that !

I much prefer using the sub preout(s) and the bass management in my processor. Using one cable (two in my case) far outweighs running speaker cables. But that's just me . So I would not agree that there is good reason to use speaker level inputs when sub preout(s) are available. If no sub preout(s) are available then speaker level inputs are the way to go. It's been years since I used speaker level inputs.

 

I recently added two REL T5i subs (on sale) to my KEF LS50s. Beautiful sounds now. (also went nuts, and replaced my Peachtree Nova 150 with Benchmark AHB2 amp and DAC 2 HGC).

 

Well, I won't pretend to know better than you, but if I had an AVR w/ sub pre-outs but no bass management- and mains that roll off around 70hz, I'd want to save the amp power and not send signals below 70hz to my speakers that could cause some distortion from drivers being asked to do something beyond their limits.

But that's just me and I readily admit to the possibility that I'm wrong.

Luckily, it makes no difference for us since we have bass management, but iirc and the OP has no bass management in his AVR, it's something for him to consider. But knowing what I know, if I was him, I'd choose your expertise over mine!

 

I'm not familiar with the OP's gear. If his AVR or whatever he is using does not have a sub preout with bass management then he needs to use speaker level inputs. If an AVR/prepro has a sub preout(s) then I would assume it has bass management. Why would any AVR/prepro that has sub preout(s) not have bass management? I'm no expert on this but from my experience the AVRs/prepros that I've owned the onboard bass management works quite well.

 

I read the user manual of the TEAC and there is no mention of bass management. Kind of disappointed. I guess the OP will find out the sub preout capabilities once he gets a decent sub.

I would also like to mention that preout capability varies. My avr definitely can handle long cable better than my minidsp. I would suggest OP to avoid using long cable (25 ft or longer).

 

Neither am I familiar w/ that TEAC unit. I checked back and it wasn't the OP who said it, but in post #7:

.

That is what I'm referring to. Why an AVR w/ a sub out wouldn't have bass management is beyond me, but this is not the first time I've heard of it- though it's possible other instances were older equipment before bass management was a common feature.

 

"The Sub Woofer Swarm" The Swarm Subwoofer System

 

The OP's stereo Teac unit has no bass management but has a sub pre-out. This is typical of stereo receivers and integrated amps. I don't understand why any manufacturer would do this, but they've been doing it for decades. My HK3270 (great little stereo receiver!) that I used in my office in the 90s had this configuration.

 

Not having bass management built into the AVR isn't as critical when the sub has built in EQ, and adjustable phase, and the listener isn't overworking the amp trying to drive the speakers currently. I wouldn't sweat it in his situation.

I have no bass management or tone controls, gasp, and use pre-amp stereo full frequency outs directly to my sub (xlr) and send a full signal to my main speakers in a 2.1 setup, from a hybrid tube pre-amp (FJET plus 6H30 tubes) and a tube amp. My bass management is from bass traps, placement, plus parametric EQ (in the sub), phase, volume, and crossover settings on the sub. It's not easy to set up because each of those adjustments affects the other, so having more adjustment options on the sub allows the user to fine tune the system without having to digitize the signal.

I can tell you from experience that different pre-amps will have different phase angles out of different output jacks causing phase angle issues with sub setup just by changing the pre-amp in the system. So my standard recommendation is to always buy a sub with an adjustable phase angle or delay setting, not just a 0-180 phase switch. All the rest of the adjustments on the sub will make life easier in the long run, crossover, PEQ, high-pass, whatever.

 

There is some truth to that - but perhaps not for the reasons you had in mind.

Let's say someone goes out and drops $6k on some designer-label retail store-sold sub. That sub could be grossly overpriced ("expensive") for its actual performance ("job") abilities. It is entirely possible that a sub at half that price could be a much better performer, and two of them even better.

More nuance...

I believe, and know, that multiple subs, when set up properly, can provide a much better listening (and feeling) experience than a single sub. But I'm assuming we're talking multiples of the same sub. Not, as some were likely thinking when they first reacted negatively to your post, two (or more) crappy subs versus a good performer all on its own.

Still more nuance...

But if you are working within a fixed budget (say the $1k of the OP) there's still some (just a little) question as to what would work best: two subs at $500 each, or one at $1,000. Again to make sure we're talking apples and apples, perhaps, if you are talking about subs from the same manufacturer (and more specifically online-only retailer like PSA or SVS - two that I recommend giving a serious look at - but I digress) then it is possible (how probable is the question) that two may sound better than one, depending on the room / environment. The opposite may also be very well the case.

Personally (to the OP) I would contact both PSA and SVS and pose exactly that question to them, taking care to describe your system, room, and listening tastes. I would not be completely surprised if they recommended two subs. I would also not be at all surprised if they suggested just one. It is not as simple a matter as the quotation above says, nor the polar opposite response to it.

Jeff

 

I thought a good article on the subject....click below to read.

'Multiple subwoofers: If one's good, two are even better'

 

Some comments after looking closer at the four options.

I'd eliminate the HSU from the list because I do not see an adjustable phase control. It will be nearly impossible to integrate even if you can place it anywhere in the room. If placement is limited this will be impossible to integrate without good bass management software.

The JL Audio Dominion should be a great sounding sub that will hold up as a system grows. It has both high level and pre-amp inputs with phase adjustment. It is missing an EQ option but that can be added from a future pre-amp upgrade by the OP. One downside is it is also the most expensive.

The Rythmik F12 includes all adjustments, phase, volume, crossover, and a single parametric EQ on the plate amp. It accepts line in from a pre-amp and high level inputs. Similarly priced to the JL Audio above plus it includes PEQ.

The downside to the Rythmik and the JL is they will require the user to know how to integrate them. They will take a lot of trial and error to get them right.

The Elac is different from the three above. It is not sealed. It uses a down firing passive radiator to act somewhat similar but not quite similar to a port. The bonus here is the software that allows you to take measurements using your phone and dial in settings, crossover, phase, PEQ. Another downside is that it only accepts a single line level input, so you may grow out of it sooner. The price is also good.

From those choices, I'm still thinking the Elac is the best option. Assuming nothing else in the system changes for a while. At a good price it comes with the tools that will help with integration. I'd rather have an average sub that is integrated well over a premium sub that sounds boomy with one note bass because of poor integration.

If on the other hand, a pre-amp with bass management is in your future, I'd spring for either the JL Audio or the Rythmik as they are sealed and use good drivers and amps, have input options, and include all or most required adjustment options.

 

For those that would like to keep their current amp but have bass management etc, mini-dsp/ DDRC24 etc are an option. Acts like a preamp, subwoofer being fed out of mini-dsp, high pass, low pass can be controlled within the software, provided not adverse to such things...

 

Looking closer at the OP's system I'd be hesitant to spend $700-$1000 for a sub when the receiver and speakers list for about $1000. It would seem a better investment to upgrade the receiver than spend all that money on a sub. The OP would then need to get a CD player as well. Not a big fan of combo receiver/CD players. The sub will help with the low end but 26 wpc of the TEAC CR-H101 is somewhat underpowered even for the efficient Klipsch RP-160Ms. Just a thought .

 

Just wanted to pop in and thank you all again for being so generous with your time and knowledge.

Kyhl, I very much appreciate the individual breakdown on these potential options. Just out of curiosity, is there any piece of reasonably affordable standalone gear that can do the auto EQ calibration work that is built into the ELAC offering?

 

Perhaps its as simple as it adds cost, and they figure nobody is paying attention? One thing I've realized is that coming from car audio, where separately adjustable highpass and lowpass are prevalent, home audio ir rarely as flexible. AVRs all have bass management but often just fixed at 80 Hz...no wonder sometimes it can be hard to integrate subs!

 

Not automatically that I'm aware of, though I'd welcome being proved wrong. So that might be a quite strong point in favor of the ELAC, though I haven't seen any reviews of how well it works. Knowing the team, I assume it works at least decently well. There are other subs with DSP and EQ etc built in, but I *think* at a significantly higher price, which maybe you're OK with.