Recommend a cartridge for me (that I would like), please

I have been reading about carts and am no where close to purchasing one. I have a sound that I want and I'll try to explain it.

I like plenty of detail, but I need a rich full ( not lean ) midrange. I want to hear drum cymbals just as loud as the rest of the drums. These cymbals should be clear and have the extension to hear all of the tones they produce. The snare and toms should show off their many tones also. The bass is the least important, but a clean full sound would be nice.

For a reference point, I compared a Vincent SV-236MK to my Marantz PM8004 amp. The Vincent had nice tight bass, great detail in the mids and sparkling highs. The sound is not bright, but it is lean. This made the Marantz sound dull and lifeless. I adjusted the tri tone controls, bass up 1 1/4 dB, treble up 1 3/4 dB and the Marantz came alive. I prefer the rich midrange of the Marantz to the lean Vincent even though I lose some detail in the bass, mids and treble with the Marantz.

So for a cartridge I'll give up a little detail for the rich midrange. If someone says a cart is bright, I will not enjoy the sound. I have a hearing condition where some midrange tones cause wincing and sometimes pain because I perceive them as harsh.

I have
AT 5013E cart with the ATS13 stylus. It's ok, a little lean and cymbals are too soft.

Shure V15 III with a Jico E and HE stylus. The E stylus had a nice full midrange, but this and the leaner mids of the HE are to relaxed in overall sound.

Ortofon 2M Blue. This cart would probably be ok with me if the midrange wasn't shouting at me. The whole tonal sound reminds me of my old cd player. My current player, Marantz CD6006 is smoother sounding than this cartridge.

I use the MM phono in the PM8004, a Technics SL-1700 (MK1)- probably higher end of medium mass tonearm. Speakers are Usher Audio N-6361.

I've been reading about the Nagaoka MP-200 and Denon DL-110, the reviews do not seem to address my concerns. I'm sure you guys know of many other brands.

Budget- $500

Thank you, Tom

 

It's difficult to recommend a cartridge without hearing your setup. Keep in mind that VTA will significantly impact the tonal balance of many carts. The phono preamp will also play a big role. I find that most built-in units have a muffled sound.

FWIW, I also thought Ortofon had a digital-like sound. I switched to a Clearaudio Concept V2MM. They use Audio Technica stylus assemblies but don't sound like an AT cart. I'd consider one of these:

Clearaudio-Performer V2 Ebony-Hi Output Cartridges|Acoustic Sounds


HANA-EH High Output Elliptical Stylus Moving Coil-Hi Output Cartridges|Acoustic Sounds

 

I am a big fan of the Denon DL-110, and recently bought a Nagaoka MP-110 and am enjoying that as well. I just posted a comparison video on YouTube that posted in another thread. I would not describe either cart as bright. The Denon definitely has greater treble extension. How much of that you'll be able to hear probably depends on how old you are.



You might consider moving up the Nagaoka line if you are willing to pay more. The MP-110 is definitely a great bang-for-the-buck cart however.

 

Being a drummer, I love this description. I'm looking forward for the recommendations you might receive.

 

Ortofon 2M Bronze has a less forward midrange than the Blue. Very nice cart.

Rega Exact 2 is warmer but a little more expensive.

 

Ditto on both the 110s. The Denon, to my ears, was a little smoother but the Nagoaka is a great all-arounder. It also minimizes pops 'n' ticks a lot which is great if you have any vinyl of less than NM condition.

 

2M bronze is a good suggestion as noted above.

I wonder if spending the $500 on an external phono stage may be a better choice here?

 

The roll off highs of the Nagaoka MP-110 playing cymbals may disappoint you although it's great otherwise.

 

I have to agree.

Prior to updating my phono stage, I had an inkling of an idea of what I was missing but had no idea the musical resolution would be increased to that extent! No cart would've been able to show me more as the bottleneck was my phono stage. Now that I've upgraded that, an upgraded cart would definitely have a huge impact.

 

Couldn't that be somewhat adjusted with a higher loading on the phono stage?

 

@floweringtoilet Thanks for posting the video comparison between the Denon DL-110 and the Nagaoka MP-110! I agree that there is more treble extension on the Denon but the bass reproduction on the Nagaoka MP-110 is really nice IMHO.

 

Maybe it can, I don't know, my phono preamp has no loading adjustment.

 

Thanks for the ideas on cartridges, I will research them.

I set up a Vincent PHO-8 to compare to the Marantz phono input. Yes, there is a very slight muffle sound with the Marantz, nothing as dramatic as the sound difference in the cartridge shootout above. The biggest difference was the bass weight and definition was better in the Vincent. Right now I'd rather spend the money on a cartridge.

And yes, I can hear the treble extension difference in the cartridge shootout. Which brings me to wonder why any cartridge would have a roll off of high frequency. I enjoy hearing drum work up there at 10k-12K Hz. 2K to 6K-8K can get annoying for me if it's bright in nature.

I dug out and set up my old Acutex 312 III STR. The bass is not as tight as some others, but the midrange sure is nice. Treble is low in volume because the stylus is worn. Good soundstage though.

 

the DL-103R is the best cartridge for the money, but you need the right system for it.

 

but also, everyone has different ears. OP specifically mentioned a hearing issue. So the only way is to audition. Unfortunately with cartridges this isn't always possible. But you can try one, and flip it if it isn't to your taste, and get some/most of the $$ back.

 

I have a different take on getting the sound One truly wants. I've spent lots of time on that Merry go round switching out components looking for the right sound to hit my sweet spot. Now I've learned to be content with my system and only tweaking it out iwith tubes and cables.

Within the last 10 years I've sorta taken a different approach to audio sound and getting to my sweet spot. I believe once the right "flavor" is found in the component (s) all one needs to do is tune it and enhance it...even treating the room if at all possible. You'd be surprised at how many people don't know the flavor of their systems...is it bright, warm more neutral? If it leans one way or the other, and I know which way, then I understand I must balance it out with the next purchase. If my system is warm, why would I buy something to add to my system thats warm? When listening it becomes sleepy time. Or if it's bright, why by something that's bright...while listening it will be ear bleed and run me out the room.

You have to understand, we aren't hearing just the amp or the speakers or the cart or the cables....we are hearing each component together. Now I believe the core of that sound begins with the speakers and then the amp/preamp. And each can be easily tuned to do whatever you want for the most part. So first find the synergy between the amp/preamp/integrated and the speakers. If you have a amp that leans bright/lively, then the key is to balance that with speaks that lean towards the opposite way so it will balance out. If you have an amp that's a little lean, as in your case , a tube amp... change the tubes to get rid of the leaness. As a side note I've had the Vincent sV-237 in my system on a loan for about two months....nothing lean there and I must say a fine amp!

You've said you had a few AT carts that are lean with soft cymbals. Hmmmm you said the Sv-236 was also lean. The first place I'd be looking if It was my system would be cabling. I have a very nice Marantz DSD DAC. Nice sound and I knew when I purchased it Marantz leans a little warm. Nice mids but a little lean. The only quality interconnect I had in the closet to connect the Marantz was a very nice Ohno copper interconnect. It took out the leaness, but still a little too warm for my taste. So I ordered a very nice ohno silver clad over ohno copper interconnect and the Marants woke up....is neutral , nice minds and very dynamic. Also...if you ace a turntable which you do..buy the best phono cables you can buy....you will be richly rewarded.

From just reading your posting above, it seems to me you need to take a hard look at your cabling system including the speaker wire and power cords if you haven't already. I know...many around here simply over look cabling and spend very little on cabling without doing research on the wires we use...casting it off as snake oil. But once you do the research and find out what a good cable is and what it can do, then a hold new world of audio is opened up to you.

I noticed a few weeks back that my preamp didn't seem as dynamic as I thought it should be and a little too warm. I thought about how I had it hooked up. It's a tubed preamp, with a set of warm Leaning tubes. The power cord which is a power conditioning power cord and was only 12awg , and on top of that, was running it through a power conditioner. Now sit back and think about that...it was all wrong. Warm tube...cord is power conditioning and only 12 awg ( thats suited more for a CD player or DAC) and going through a power conditioner! So removed the power conditioner and plugged directly into wall...a little better...but not as dynamic , still a little to warm and still not neutral as I like. So I ordered a very good 10 awg power cord that's copper with a little silver over lay from a real physisist/ engineer who has a cable bussiness...bye-passed the power conditioning and ran it right into the wall with any audiophile Oyaide R1 wall outlet and man oh man....neutral and very dynamic....the Preamp woke up and the overal synergy is 100% spot on!

So if you can...and if you haven't already....know the flavor of your system and look to cabling....you'd be surprise

 

Thank you for the thoughtful post. I am trying to do what you have stated.

After 20 years with the Klipsch speakers, I purchased the Usher Audio speakers. These do not have the harsh midrange I was hearing with the Klipsch. The Usher's can play with great detail, yet have a relaxed tone, compared to the Klipsch. Excellent sounding material sounds fabulous while lesser quality is not ear fatiguing.

Two weeks ago I purchased the Marantz cd player, replacing an Onkyo unit I used for 27 years. I always thought the Onkyo was a rich sounding player and after using the CD6006 I still think it is not fatiguing. The new cd player is on a whole new level. Reviews say the player is/can be bright, and an easy listening unit. I like to easy listening! I feel it matches well with the Marantz amp.The player has enough detail to let me enjoy my classic to progressive rock to heavy metal and a few jazz rock cd's.

I think/hope the SL-1700 is on the sound flavor I want. So a cartridge is next on my list.

With the money not spent on the Vincent amp and phono pre amp, I'd like to use these dollars on (a cartridge) cables and speaker wire. I do not think I will enjoy trying to figure out what cables and speaker wire to use, within my budget.

I do have first reflection room treatments. I set them up when I listen to music. I have learned that if I do not use them, after about 2 hours, I feel ear fatigue with a slight loss in high frequency hearing. I try not to listen above 75 dB and normal volume is lower.

I am considering the HOMC Denon DL-110. I've read the the Denon can be bright, detailed and not fatiguing. Kinda sounds like the new cd player. If the cartridge has the same tonal quality as the cd player I'll be happy. I am unsure how this will work with the Marantz MM phono. The user guide states 2mV for phono input sensitivity.

 

You'll want a high gain MM stage for that cartidge, something close to 50 db or more.

 

You're welcome Tommy! And the best way to test interconnects, power cords and speaker wire is to first got to the web site High End audio, Video & speaker cables from The Cable company . Read up on their policy of borrowing cables. They have a huge library of cables, interconnect and speaker wire you can borrow. I think they charge something like 5% of price of what you borrow and if you do purchase from them, the 5% goes away, so you really don't lose money. If you call them up, tell them what gear you have and budget and what you are trying to do, they will make some professional suggestions. They are a great resource.

I own two Denon carts...the DL 301 MK II and the Denon DL-Sl. Neither are bright, both are LOMC... Sorry cant tell you much about the DL 110.

 

I do not know the gain for the PM 8004

Also, can you elaborate more on the sound of the two cartridges you posted earlier? What Ortofon did you have and do you think performer is a big step up from the concept?

Thank you. That will be a big relief when the time comes for cables, etc. Good to read the Denon's you have are not bright.

 

In only suggested the Performer based on your budget. The only CA cart I have experience with is the Concept V2. As for the Hana, I haven't heard it, but a friend of mine swears by those carts. He and I have a very similar taste in gear so I imagine it's likely a warm but resolving cart. He's accustomed to some very high dollar carts and alluded to the Hanas being just as good.

I've owned the 2M Red, MC3 Turbo and the OM10. The local record store uses the blue. All these Ortrofons share a house sound that reminds me of digital.

 

I'll agree with upgrading phono preamp. My integrated amp is a Marantz PM8004 and I've never listened to the phono input but there are some great phono stages to be had for $500 range. I also agree with the Ortofon 2M bronze choice. I have one and really like it.

Here is the specs on the PM8004 phono input:
MM:2mV/47k ohms

 

On my second DL-110.

 

Bless you! This is how my system (including the room) is configured.

M~