Justice League (2017)

In retrospect, Marvel Studio’s break may have been that all their biggest and most recognizable characters were tied up elsewhere. I’m sure it caused them to approach things differently, more outside the box, knowing they had to cultivate the characters they still managed instead of letting the Spider-Man name carry them along.

 

Ragnarok is a MCU high.

Dark World maybe?

 

Not a fan of either Dark World nor Ragnarok, although I'd rank Ragnarok worse, and I'll be honest, to me the worst Marvel movie to date. People who rag on Last Jedi as being too humorous or full of out of place humor and jokes obviously haven't seen Ragnarok. That story should have been an epic shakesperian tragedy on a cosmic scale and instead it was basically Guardians of the Galaxy vol 3 with Thor characters subbed in. I don't mind humor, but literally no moment of drama or pathos could stand without some groan worthy attempt at humor. I was so royally disappointed in Raganarok, but I realize im in the minority.

 

So, is this the end of the line for the non-Wonder Woman DCU characters as presented in Justice League? It’s safe that Gal Gadot’s Wonder Woman will be around for awhile. But will Superman and Batman be rebooted?

 

That’s how I felt about The Martian.

 

so, how many execs does it take to screw up a franchise? What were all these execs doing (or not doing) that contributed to the failure of the DC series? Seriously, do any of these studio people actually know anything?

 

That Wagnerian is not what the MCU base wants-not judging, it works economically, but they don't like dark and deep.

 

Aquaman is supposed to come out later this year
around Christmas.

Wonder Woman 2 next year.

The Flash and Cyborg movies are in early development for 2020

As for Bats and Supe, rumors of Affleck being replaced
have been constant and Man of Steel 2 doesn't seem to
be a priority for DC right now.

 

DC's approach is super heroes. Icons.
Marvel's is super humans. Relatable

 

I thought "BvS" essentially was "Man of Steel 2". I think that "Lives" and "MOS" convinced WB to give up on standalone Superman movies for the time being...

 

It originally started a MOS 2. But, morphed into
something different.

Henry Cavill said this

‘Batman v. Superman’ star Henry Cavill talks ‘Dawn of Justice’ plot, set up for Justice League movies

Both Cavill and Zach Snyder said they still want to
make a proper sequel during promo for BVS. A lot
has happened since then.

I don't think we'll get a clear idea of the direction of
the DCEU until after the release of Aquaman.

 

I think the WB execs completely freaked out when Wonder Woman -- which was a very different movie from the Superman/DC Comics movies Zach Snyder was making -- was a massive hit ($821 million) and got great reviews. I think they started to put a lot of pressure on Snyder to push Justice League more in that direction -- which is to say, more like a fun Marvel movie, and less like a dark, gloomy film like Man of Steel -- and he wasn't happy about it. I think the arguments boiled over around the time his daughter committed suicide, and that was as good a reason as any for him to leave and Joss Whedon to take over.

I would bet that WB has had endless meetings trying to analyze Marvel's strategy and why their writing, direction, promotion, and characters have been better-received by the public than the recent (post-Nolan) DC Comics movies. To me, the single biggest reason is that Marvel chief Kevin Feige has good taste and really knows the properties inside and out. Having a sharp exec who knows when to say "yes" and when to say "no" has incalculable value.

I'm not sure if the Marvel films can be reduced to a formula, because the Iron Man movies, the Captain America movies, and oddball stuff like Guardians of the Galaxy kind of go all over the place. But look at the difference between the last few Spiderman movies produced by Sony and then the recent one produced by Disney/Marvel, and you'll see some clues. Overall, I'd say they take a light-hearted approach at telling a story, but not so much that it renders everything stupid... and they also throw in just enough drama and actual conflict that it's not a sitcom. The snappy one-liners are not just grafted on -- they're integrated into the dialogue pretty seamlessly.

 

Smart aleckness and snark has been Marvel's stock in trade since about 1964
signed,
Yancy Street Gang and The Howlin' Commandos

 

But then it must add further to their confusion that the Nolan movies were very successful despite not being funny and colourful like Marvel’s.

I think the answer is basically “Zack Snyder doesn’t make good movies.”

 

...and we have a winnah! they have been pretty consistent with that approach, with some diversions now and then with, for example, some daredevil stories. whereas DC has been rather inconsistent with their characters-IMHO, some of the best DC stuff is the dark and dreary take, especially Batman. While I can see why some folks disliked BvS, and I've said this before, it struck a chord with me and is one of my favorite films. I own but haven't watched the extended cut. I did NOT see JL, even after seeing BvS four times on IMAX, because I really feel that the "ensemble" approach, especially in what was to be two films boiled down to one, and then one barely two hours in length, would simply destroy the conflict and contrast established in BvS. I've seen the MCU movies, a couple f them, on TV, and saw Civil War at the theater. The big difference for me between M & DC is that the prior makes certain you remember it's a comic and the latter ignores that it is a comic (I didn't see JL, so it may have gone over to MCU a bit, per what I've read).

 

Well from what came out about Snyder and JL recently, it is sounding more and more like he didn't leave under his own accord and he was pretty much replaced by WB with Whedon even before WW came out. Snyder's daughter's suicide gave everyone PR cover to make it look more like a voluntary transition to " finish" the movie rather than actually what it was, which was a near complete reshoot to " marvelize" the movie, particularly when it came to Superman, Which saw nearly all of Snyder's footage with him cut out or spliced with the reshoot material. That's easy to see with the wonky lip CGI on Cavill.

Either way, it doesn't seem that WB is altering the DC slate that drastically from what was announced last fall before JL dropped, and many of the people let go from DC Entertainment in the wake of JL were actually dismissed before it opened, meaning they were likely anticipating a financial turkey. Granted, it probably did a bit worse than they anticipated originally, but I don't think there is a large scale scrambling and panic YET. Apparently Aquaman is nearing completion , Shazam is under way and the Ezra Miller Flash solo movie seems to still be happening, so it isn't like the DCEU is completely dead and a reboot is imminent.

However, if Aquaman fails to do well, then I'd say it's a safe bet the big red reboot button may be pressed, or even more likely, WB goes back to their safe bet pattern of more Batman movies with Wonder Woman getting her full trilogy and maybe an occasional attempt at Superman every few years, with the other properties going to TV and the recently announced DC streaming service.

As for Marvel, I agree that for the most part, their light hearted approach has worked well and has on a whole been pretty balanced, but Ragnarok for me was a bridge too far. Ragnarok didn't need to be a wagerian dark and depressing movie, but to me it felt like a full on comedy and that balance you speak of wasnt the case for much of it. While the approach to the humor was similar to Guardians and the most recent Spider-Man, those three movies had a beating heart of earnestness and made you feel something for the characters and situations and you felt real stakes. Ragnarok didn't make me feel anything but cringing and wincing with the attempts at sometimes sophomoric bathroom humor for pure yuks. However, it did very well financialy, so I guess that is all that matters at Marvel.

On the other hand, Black Panther was truly great and tipped the scales back to the proper balance of drama,humor and action. There are legitimately funny moments in BP and never once does it undercut it's drama or stakes.

 

That's a good point I think. Sci-Fi/Superhero films tend to work if the audience cares about the characters, otherwise it's all flashy meaningless graphics. And the execs at Marvel were wise enough to know that the 'general' movie audience didn't really know who Cap and Thor and Iron Man were (let alone Black Widow and Hawkeye and the entire Guardians), not like they knew Spider-Man or the Hulk. So the debut film had to mainly function as an introduction to the character and making people care about them, making them likeable, which they achieved very well.

With DC although we knew Batman and Superman the films were very poor about making us care about these ones, and as for Suicide Squad they could have killed the whole cast in the first half hour and I don't think anyone would have cared. Wonder Woman worked as it was basic good story telling - present a likeable hero that we could all root for that had genuine motivations.

 

There are rumors that the studio was encouraged by the generally positive reaction Cavill's Supes got from critics and the people who saw the movie, chatter about "moustache-gate" not withstanding. Cavill also has one more movie on his contract as Superman, so he will apparently get at least one more appearance as Supes.

Whether that's the rumored guest staring role in the Shazam movie or a stand alone movie is anyone's guess. Latest buzz is that sometime in March there will be an announcement for Superman's big screen future, but we've heard similar rumors before.

One thing though that could make this different is that this year marks Supes 80th anniversary and the publication of ACTION COMICS #1000 and the return of the classic Superman costume with the trunks. DC Comics is making a big deal of the subsequent relaunch of the Superman line of comics spearheaded by the ex-marvel star writer Brian Michael Bendis.

ACTION #1000 comes out in April. The relaunch in May. Perhaps the announcement of a Snyder-free Supes film staring Cavill in March to kick off the year of Superman?

 

Yes, they managed to have a really delicate balance between action and humor while telling a believable story. What I felt like while seeing Justice League is that it was clear when they were shoehorning in a few one-liners or visual gags; I don't get the feeling that Zach Snyder is big on that. Whether he's right or wrong hardly matters -- the audience has made it clear they would rather spend money to see a Marvel-style movie.

I gotta say, Thor: Ragnarok was not very good in terms of story, and there were some downright horrific VFX shots in it as well (so it bugged me from a technical standpoint). But I've always thought the Thor comics and stories were much too serious and heavy-handed, so I actually thought it was a pretty clever idea to just abandon any hope of real drama and just turn it into a (mostly) comedy, with occasional moments of death, destruction, and chaos.

I think the last Chris Nolan Batman movie was pretty heavy-handed and pretentious in spots. But as David said above, it's very hard to argue with a movie that financially successful.

 

The Martian.
As a survival movie it was at best ok.
The problem I found Mars soil didn't look authentic enough. Looked like Capricorn 1 backlot.

 

Will DC's Jack Kirby's creations ever make the big screen?

 

Technically Steppenwolf in JL was a Kirby creation Which was supposed to lead to Darkseid in JL2. Obviously, that's probably not happening anytime soon, and if ( big if) JL2 happens it'll likely be the Justice League vs. Luthor and the Legion of Doom.

 

Wish DC would just dump Superman JL. Just feel these characters, even WW/Flash are outmoded by Marvel cinematically. DC needs fresh input, i think Jack Kirby's vision is the way.

 

The Martian, although I enjoyed it, is pretty much an exact rip-off of combining the Red Planet and Brian De Palma's Mission To Mars. Astronaut trapped on Mars has to grow plants to survive, rescue attempt goes wrong and they have to find an old space rocket to use to escape. In Red Planet and the Martian the plot revolves around finding and using the old Mars Pathfinder so that they can use it to contact earth.

For me it seemed very much like I'd seen it all before.

 

What will happen, considering that Wonder Woman is very popular and they want to keep her, and the Flash was ok, is that the Flash will use the speed force and go back in time and change history. WW will be unaffected as she is on an isolated island but all the other heroes will be changed and you can recast the lot.