Cartridge upgrade recommendations

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by TDurden, Mar 17, 2018.

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  1. TDurden

    TDurden Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Westminster, CO
    Hello All,

    I have a couple of questions. At the first of the year I upgraded my TT/Cart and added a PPA to my setup and I'm thinking up stepping up to an MC cartridge. Current setup:

    Rega Planar 3 TT w/Groovetracer counter weight and sub platter
    SIM Audio MOON 110LP Phono Pre Amp
    Ortofon 2M black cartridge

    What is bugging me is the sibilance I get on some recordings. I seem to be quite sensitive to it and it drives me nuts!
    I was speaking to a forum member and he suggested that the sibilance may be a product of the Ortofon cartridge and suggested that if I went with something else it might decrease or eliminate it. For anyone who doesn't know, the 2M Black is a MM with a Shibata tip.
    So...a couple of questions to the group; one, would you agree that the Ortofon may be the cause of the sibilance? Two, what would you recommend as a replacement? I figure as long as I am going to do it I want to get a MC also. I need to keep it under $1000 and preferably under $800.
    I'm currently looking at the Hana MC Shibata (Hana Shibata Phono Cartridge ) and the AT 33PTG/II (AT33PTG/II - Moving Coil Cartridge | Audio-Technica ).

    I was initially reluctant to spend more money on the setup this quickly but then remembered that I will be able to recover some of the cost by selling the Ortofon. Ahhh, rationalizations, where would we be without them ;)

    Big thanks in advance for insight and opinions!

    -TD
     
  2. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I’ve never met an Ortofon 2M Black that produced sibilance that wasn’t the result of poor mastering/pressing or lousy speakers or damaged LPs or a problem with installation. I’m saying that a 2M Black properly mounted and aligned in any dead level turntable with any Rega 3xx tonearm ever made should be wonderful.

    In every sibilance problem I’ve ever dealt with, one or more of levelling, alignment, VTA and/or VTF were off. Occasionally, a stylus was damaged and occasionally, a cantilever was twisted, but never an Ortofon 2m Black. Superb cartridge. Wonderful turntable and arm.
     
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  3. nosliw

    nosliw Delivering parcels throughout Teyvat! Meow~!

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Sometimes, sibilance would already appear in the actual recording itself, rather than from the cartridge and stylus. Try comparing the music you're listening to in another format (i.e., CD or digital download) where the sibilance occurs to your LP.
     
  4. mdelrossi

    mdelrossi Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn nyc
    @TDurden,
    I just installed a Hana SL, coming from a 2m Bronze and Denon dl160.
    Much better than both, yet keeping the large soundstage of the Denon, and the fun of the Bronze, plus more detail without sibilance.

    Enjoy
    mdr
     
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  5. TDurden

    TDurden Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Westminster, CO
    Thanks Agitater. I’ve very happy with the setup overall. I was floored when I heard the detail the 2M Black pulled out of the vinyl. I was replacing a 2M Blue and the difference was staggering. The MOON really improved the soundstage and placement of voices and instruments also.
    I had the cartridge mounted and aligned at a high end audio shop here in Denver and they seemed to know what they were doing. I double checked the alignment using the cardboard template that came with the Rega and it looked correct. I know that is not exactly the most precise measuring tool, just wanted to see if it looked good after they did it. I added a 2mm shim to get the VTA correct with the taller cartridge and the the VTF is right where it should be at 1.5 grams. I measured it with both a rocker scale and a digital one. I’m not sure how to measure the VTA, I just added the shim because the guy at the shop suggested it as did a few on line forums. I used a level to get the TT set up and both the bubbles are dead center in the window.
    Would you recommend having someone else check the VTA and alignment of the cartridge in the tonearm?
     
  6. TDurden

    TDurden Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Westminster, CO
    Nice! I was coming from a 2M Blue and the difference with the Black was staggering. I’m sure you had the same experience. Thanks for the input on the Hana :righton:
     
  7. TDurden

    TDurden Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Westminster, CO
    Good idea. Thanks!
     
  8. Vinylanswer.net

    Vinylanswer.net Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York,NY
    The Hana /rega combo is amazing but you will need to purchase shims to put under your tone arm. Without raising the tone arm height you won't get the right VTA for the Hana and it won't sound right. It will be dark and muffled.

    Also just a heads up, it sounds to me like the 2m black might be set up incorrectly in your scenario. You may want to investigate shims for that cart as well.

    But in my opinion, with the correct set up, the Hana is the winner.
     
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  9. TDurden

    TDurden Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Westminster, CO
    Thanks. Based on what the guy at the shop told me (he owns a Rega with an Ortofon Black Quintet) and what I gathered online I added a 2mm shim under the tonearm for the cartridge. Do you think it may need more than that? The headshell looks pretty level with the record when it’s playing.
     
  10. Pythonman

    Pythonman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    If I still had my Planar 2 and wanted to run a 2M Black I’d get a Feikert protractor and try anything but the Stevenson alignment. Then make sure table and rack are dead nuts level and only shim arm to parallel with a record. Set tracking force to recommended VTF and you should be good to go. I just got Hana SH on my Prime table and there’s zero sibilance anywhere on anything I have played.
     
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  11. Gasman1003

    Gasman1003 Forum Diplomat.

    Location:
    Liverpool, England
    I have been using a 2M Black for 3 years and have never notice sibilance on my system.
     
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  12. Vinylanswer.net

    Vinylanswer.net Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York,NY
    2mm may be good for the ortofon 2m black.
    The Hana is deeper. I would say 4-5mm for the Hana. On the rp6 anyway. I'm not familiar with your table. You want the stylus tip for those style tips to be hit the grooves at an approximatelt 92 degree angle.
     
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  13. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    This!
     
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  14. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    This is more complicated than it seems though. Michael Fremers videos on SRA for example only show an estimation since he only measurs 92 degrees on a plate of glass with no movement or friction. Whats typically best to do is get it close and just listen afterwards. Same for Azimuth and Anti Skate.

    Also, be aware that adding more than I think 3mm to a Rega tables arm will cause the counterweight to hit the lid. Luckely the OP has a Groovetracer mod so he can add a bit more, not sure how much. But if he wants to use the lid I suggest measuring the distance left to the lid cealing from the CW.
     
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  15. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Take the shim out because it sounds as though you may have over-torqued one or two screws or under-torqued one or two of the three screws when remounting the arm on the shim. When that happens, azimuth is off. Incorrect azimuth will generate inner groove distortion from almost every cartridge/arm combination. A fraction of a millimeter out-of-vertical arm at the tonearm base is equal to a noticeable azimuth problem at the headshell.

    The Ortofon 2M Black may be slightly taller than Rega cartridges, but you really should consider running the 2M Black tail down (if that's how the arm actually measures without a shim under the arm base) and setting it up using Stevenson or Baerwalt alignment with a good protractor. Seriously too, the only way to eff-up a 2m Black/Rega RB3xx installation is to get the alignment and azimuth wrong. The vertical tracking angle is far less crucial, in my experience, with your tonearm and cartridge combo on a Rega turntable. A bit of patience and a good protractor can result in magical music radiating in waves from your turntable/arm/cartridge combination.

    A good protractor, to me, means the Feikert Universal Protractor. It's expensive-ish and with normal care and moderately careful storage when not in use, will last a lifetime. Get a good Ortofon bubble level too, because their known and acknowledged to have plane bases so that the reticle on top actually does tell you when the turntable is level. A short, brand name, torpedo level works well too. Get a very good level. Spend more than a dollar - a lot more - because most of the cheap levels are not actually level and can often be as much as a millimeter off from side to side. That means you'll never actually your turntable platter properly leveled.

    I have screwed around with every kind of paper printout and cardboard printout protractor there is - literally dozens and dozens of them over the years. None of them are as accurate or repeatably and consistently reliable as the Feickert, Clearaudio Alignment Gauge, or the Pro-ject Align It. The Feickert has always worked best for me, and it is not the most expensive.

    The problem with letting other people - including experienced turntable technicians - install and set up your cartridge is they're never going to be listening to results with your ears. There's just enough variation within the parenthetical boundaries of what is considered normal hearing for one known-good pair speakers to sound great to one person and terrible to another. So it is with cartridge setups too. I understand that most audiophiles prefer not to mess around with delicate headshell leads and some are too leery about ruining a stylus during installation too. But having the right set of tools at home to refine the installation is one of the tickets to musical nirvana.

    Anyway, consider it. And ditch the shim. And be precise when re-torquing the tonearm base - exact same torque on each screw, and once you feel the hard stop while turning the screwdriver only at a moderate rate, that's it! Not even the slightest bit more.
     
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  16. TDurden

    TDurden Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Westminster, CO
    Thanks so much for the responses. Regarding the shim install, I was very cognizant of how much torque I was putting on each screw when I remounted the tonearm so I don't think I affected the azimuth. I didn't use a torque wrench but paid strict attention to make sure I stopped turning when I felt the same amount of resistance on each one and confirmed that the base is very secure all the way around. Not saying that I know I didn't knock it out of alignment but it seems unlikely to me.
    You guys are killing me with the Feikert Protractor! hahaha :winkgrin:. I'm just having a hard time swallowing the $250 price. I'm quite sure it's worth every penny, its just a lot of money for what it is and how often I will use it. I looked for a used one and there just are not any out there. At this point I've got the Feikert and the ProJect both in my cart on Music Direct. I just need to decide if I want to drop the extra $100 for the Feikert. The Ortofon bubble level is in there so it'll be arriving as well. I appreciate the recommendations Agitater and Pythonman.
    It makes the most sense to me to stick with the Orto Black because I really like the way it sounds other than this occasional sibilance. At this point my plan is to make any adjustments that may be required once the tools arrive and leave the shim in. I don't want to be removing and re-installing the tonearm on the plinth any more than is absolutely necessary. If I'm still not happy with the results after adjustments I'll pull it off and take the shim out. I did some research and it looks like the Rega Elys II cartridge is 14 mm high and the Ortofon Black is 18 mm. Rega is selling the Planar 3 with the Elys II installed and I can only assume they designed and built their tonearms and tables to work perfectly with their own cartridges so it seems that some lift to the tonearm would be needed. Like I said, I'll let my ears decide.
    By the way this all started when I picked up a copy of the MFSL One Step pressing of Fagen's 'The Nightfly'. There is just a slight amount of sibilance on the hi hat on a couple of tracks and from what I had gathered from others that had heard it there was none at all when they listened, which is what I expect of a release like that. I'm sure some of what I hear on other albums is a result of the production. 95% of my collection is recent remastered reissues of older albums with just a few used ones in there but even they are in stellar condition so I don't think it's the quality of the pressings. Not that a new pressing is necessarily any better than an old one but they do seem to be taking a bit more care when they manufacture the newer albums.
    I'll update the thread with the end results once I get to that point and thanks again!

    -TD
     
  17. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Get the Conrad Hoffman tool, make sure the arc protractor is printed to scale, get it laminated. Use a length of dental floss or fishing line to extend the line of sight to the pivot point. No need for the Fieckert.
     
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  18. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I never thought to check the height difference before posting about your 2mm shim. If there really is a 4mm height difference between the Elys II and the 2M Black, then a shim is definitely needed. Leeway in VTA is one thing as I described earlier, but a 4mm difference is way too much. You need a 3mm or 4mm shim, preferably the machined stainless steel version rather than the plastic fiber one.
     
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