Black Sabbath's Forbidden - What went wrong?!

So I've been on a massive Sabbath kick for the last week or so.

My favorite Sabbath albums have always been the non-Ozzy ones. Sure those are the classics, but I just don't care for Ozzy's voice is all.

That being said, what's up with Forbidden?

The guys, while not necessarily being at the toppermost of the poppermost, had at least been putting out some very strong albums in previous 15 years without a TRUE dud among them.

Born Again
Seventh Star
Headless Cross
Tyr
Dehumanizer
The Eternal Idol
Cross Purposes

and then we have Forbidden

Out of nowhere it seems. Just...what happenned?!

I know there was record label interference and personnel shake ups, but considering how much trouble the band/Iommi went through on seemingly every previous album to keep things going, you wouldn't think it'd be THAT big a deal at this point.

Also, I will admit that I like the rapping on Illusion Of Power. I think it adds to the darkness.

What are everyone's thoughts on the album? I kind of always have had this nagging feeling that they should've taken a break after Cross Purposes. Not that they were beating a dead horse, but maybe they were just tired out from the constant trial of trying to live up to the past but not doing so (commercially, at least).

It's a flippin' curious little album, ain't it?

 

Born Again is great. As good as any Sabbath. Really cool album and songs. I like the cover too. The ones after i never really checked out. I heard a song from maybe Tony Martin Headless Cross and thought what band is this. Just some 80s bs. Guess i should check 'em out if you think this is better than the other stuff. Must be something to it.

 

I wouldn't put any of the Martin albums alongside Vol. 4 or Master of Reality, but they are, overall, still excellent on the whole.

Headless Cross is my big favorite. When Death Call is KILLER!

 

Born Again has to be the most debated Sabbath album ever. However to me nothing to debate. Its brilliant!!!

 

Just my observation on the Forbidden album. After the tour for Cross Purposes, for whatever reason, Iommi drafted back in the rhythm section of the TYR era in Cozy Powell and Neil Murray and as the band Body Count was hot at the time, especially with the controversial single, "Cop Killer", and was led by rapper Ice-T, I suppose managers and record company execs thought it would be a nifty idea to have Body Count's guitarist Ernie C produce the forthcoming album and have Ice-T sing on some of it. Obviously, Tony Iommi thought it would be something different and while Ice-T only makes a cameo on opening cut Illusion of Power, the writing on that album turned out to be the most generic and standard of all of the Martin releases.

There's a few numbers I DO like, such as Rusty Angels, Can't Get Close Enough and Get a Grip, but coming after a strong release like Cross Purposes and seeing the band reverting backwards in lineup configuration, as well as Forbidden also being a contractual obligation, perhaps, it's simply the worst album of their career in terms of quality and execution. I will say that the Martin era has always been 3rd place within Sabbath's existence and will always remain there because, while Tony Martin is a good singer in his own right and was able to help Iommi continue to earn a living through the use of the Sabbath name on 5 of the 6 releases during this "survival" phase, it just doesn't have a strong enough identity when compared to Dio and Ozzy.

Each of those albums(including Seventh Star with Glenn Hughes) have their share of good to great numbers on offer and I do like Eternal Idol and Cross Purposes best from the other four, but by the time of Forbidden, I think the Martin era had run its course; and while, not for lack of trying, songs like Guilty as Hell, Sick and Tired, the title cut, Shaking Off the Chains and album opener, Illusion of Power try to maintain relevancy and continuity within the time period, they just come off as uninspired and lacklustre. I blame the Forbidden debacle on management and misguided judgement on Iommi's part.

 

Strangely enough,the cd kept its value! I cant find one under 30 usd,with shipping! I check amazone,ebay,discog... There is cheap one,but they are from Russian federation or eastern europe,probably fake copy. I have the cassette,but my deck only play the left channel these days. I would like to listen to it again,'cause I remember I hated it when it was release.Maybe I would change my mind....

 

Forbidden is the only Black Sabbath album I don't like. It has nothing to do with the rapping, I like Ice T! But the songs just aren't there overall. I do think Can't Get Close Enough is very good - Iommi's playing is just killer, and once it takes off at 1:28, I love the song.

 

Love the original eight, even the two supposedly lesser of those. On certain days I might even prefer Dio's tenure to Ozzy's. I enjoy Born Again and Seventh Star a lot (for what they are). There are quite a few songs I like on Eternal Idol. Headless Cross at least got Cozy playing monsterous drums, plus the title track and "When Death Calls" going for it. But after that it just went off the rails for me.

And Forbidden to my ears is one of or maybe rather THE worst album I've ever heard by a band I really love.

 

I would like others in this thread to put yourself in my shoes. I'm a casual Sabbath fan, and I own and am familiar with every one of their albums up to and including Born Again, but I've never heard any of their full albums made after that. I honestly have no clue what most of them sound like.

Got a clear idea of what that must be like? Now, re-read the quote above and imagine my reaction. It has to be the same exact reaction Ozzy went through when Tony brought in a full chorus for Sabotage.

 

OK I lol'd. People complain about the "rapping": but it's literally just dramatic spoken word. He's not yo yo yo check dis.. it's:

Fool, you’re caught in a complex catacomb of your own inadequacies and pitiful weaknesses,
Your soul secretes insecurity.
So you live on the reflection side of the mirror; you’re terrified of true power.
You Fear

It's not Linkin Park or Limp Biskit, if that's the fear.

 

I just realized I badly need to put together a compilation CD of the best of Sabbath's late-period stuff.

 

I didn't think it was really followed through as far as the Ice-T inclusion was concerned. That snippet of his appearance on the opening cut was underwhelming and awkward. When I bought a copy, I was expecting a full fledged collaboration when I saw in the credits that he was featured on that track. He had done something with Perry Farrell from Jane's Addiction and they did a one-off cover of Sly and the Family Stone's Don't Call Me N***er, Whitey a few years prior and I thought this would be the case on Forbidden. Also, having Ernie C producing the record was, most likely, for budget purposes; even the cover art looked cheap and campy by Sabbath standards.

I have to admit, though, that Rusty Angels is pretty damn catchy:

 

Coke and the last of the 'ludes...one helluva combo.

 

Was originally conceived/recorded as the first Iommi solo album...but the record company said "nah, we want to sell a Black Sabbath product, who the hell is Tony Imonni??"

 

Yeah, that is another aspect of the whole fiasco. People are always carping about how horrid the Born Again cover is, but hey. At least that is horror movie horrible. The Forbidden cover art is more like insulting.

 

I've always viewed the Seventh Star as an Iommi solo album made in tandem with Glenn Hughes and while I've never been been a big fan of Hughes, they work together wonderfully on Seventh Star. I consider Eternal Idol the third chapter or phase in Sabbath's career and it should've ended on a good note with Cross Purposes. Even Tony Martin himself, hated recording Forbidden, but I suppose he was bound by contract as well as having loyalty to Iommi. A shame, really.

 

I think Born Again was the last 'Sabbath' album recorded FOR the Sabbath brand until Dehumanizer.

All those Tony Martin/Glenn Hughes records were supposed to be solo, iirc.

 

Seventh Star was supposed to be Iommi's solo debut, but Warner Bros. got cold feet and refused to put it out unless it had the Black Sabbath name on it. Hence, the unwieldy front cover heading of "Black Sabbath Featuring Tony Iommi."

 

Somehow I prefer Forbidden to Eternal Idol, which was cringeworthy cheese 100% and in times sounded like a bad AOR record. At least Forbidden had the vibe and the darkness and if the production was better it wouldn't be such a failure. What's the point of having Cozy back if he sounds like crap?

 

"Kiss of Death" was an epic masterpiece, IMO. Too bad it came too late. Great album closer but not enough quality material to lead up to something of that nature.

"Illusion of Power" was good, IMO. A few good tracks. Haven't spun it in a while but I never thought it was too bad. Surely it could be argued to be Sabbath's weakest effort, however.

 

Yes, that's what a lot of musicians say about failed records like this... "Well, it was supposed to be a solo album but when it came out, it said [BAND NAME] on it, I was shocked!!!"

 

I like the Tony Martin era a lot. I think he's a real talent and a good fit with Tony Iommi although I'd readily agree that Forbidden is the least enjoyable of the ones he's on. On the other hand Headless Cross and Tyr are probably my two favourite Sabbath albums.

Haven't heard every sabbath album but the one I really dislike is Seventh Star but then I don't have much time for Glenn Hughes.

 

I might be in a small minority here but i love TYR.

 

I can agree on Born Again because of Bill Ward returning as you have 3/4's of the original band, but Eternal Idol does have strong material and there is more of a singular focus on hard rock aspects in tandem with Sabbath's sound as opposed to Seventh Star. Tracks like The Shining, Ancient Warrior, Nightmare and Hard Life to Love could've easily been done with Dio and would've benefited from his presence in terms of continuity had that been the case. Still, Martin came in at the last minute during the recording of Idol as Ray Gillen was originally supposed to be the singer on it, and did a fantastic job.

The next few albums saw a proper stable lineup with Cozy Powell in the ranks and Neil Murray joining on for the Headless Cross tour and TYR album and tour, but then it took a strange turn as Dio/Appice rejoined Iommi and Butler for Dehumanizer and then after that tour, Martin returned and Bobby Rondinelli joined on drums for Cross Purposes, then the TYR lineup came back for the ill-fated Forbidden album. A very tumultuous and confusing time to be a Sabbath fan for sure as you didn't know which version you were going to get year by year!

 

I was just thinking as a result of this thread that this needs to be an official release! I'd buy that so I could get a grasp on what Sabbath was doing in the later WB years and IRS years. To my surprise, it seems that CDs of these less popular albums aren't budget-priced these days.

Of course, I could always just go to YouTube....