Record Cleaning - Perfect Vinyl Forever

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by BD2665, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    It would be interesting if you sent your record to Perfect Vinyl Forever to see if they can do a better job.
     
  2. jon9091

    jon9091 Master Of Reality

    Location:
    Midwest
    I think you should sell your process, because I’m just not comfortable shipping my valuable records across the country just to get cleaned. What if they are lost or damaged?
     
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  3. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    You only send the vinyl in a real sturdy box so I doubt it will get damaged. Getting lost is possible, but if you send a lot of really expensive records it might be best to go there personally or find a similar service closer.

    What they do is not magic however. They just use expensive ultrasonic equipment that you can probably buy right now, but for a pretty penny. The best part is that they have multiple steps of alcohol, ezyme and rinsing stages that are designd to tackle all kinds of problems your stylus picks up.
     
  4. PerfectVinylForever

    PerfectVinylForever Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    @Leonthepro - We use 80kHz ultrasonic transducers with a resonant frequency of 84kHz. The wavelength in water is about 0.9". Our records are spaced 1.0" apart so the ultrasonic waves can fully form. We also use two to three times the number of ultrasonic transducers in each of our tanks when compared to consumer URCM or parts cleaner derived URCMs but drive them with lower intensity. This high provides better cavitation coverage and is safer for records.

    @DangerousKitchen - I agree 100%. If I could edit my response and expand on Mr. Fremer's comment, I would. There are many personas who use our service and they all have a different view of our value proposition. For some, the time we save them that they use to enjoy the music is the highest value. Others, not investing in RCM equipment and leveraging a "fractional share" of our equipment makes the most sense. Others, who all had some level of record cleaning regimen, simply like the results of our multi-step process(es) and are content to park their consumer RCM in the closet. It really doesn't reflect the net worth of the individual.

    @Erik Tracy - Thank you, thank you, thank you! You statement is 100% on point. Ultrasonic cleaning alone is not the answer. The answer is the process, of which, ultrasonics play a role, but not the entire role. Most consumer based machines only recommend using distilled water. This is not effective when using ultrasonic cavitation to clean anything. Detergents and surfactants are required for cavitation to "get close enough" to the record to do the job. So, you likely had your records ultrasonically rinsed, without the benefit of having them ultrasonically cleaned. This is why we have a ultrasonic cleaning step and a ultrasonic rinse step. BTW, on a thoroughly cleaned record, the minerals deposited by distilled water are audible. That is a topic for another discussion...

    Realistic expectations are important. For an older record with built-up contaminants, I would have used our Archival process to pre-treat your record by soaking your record in a warm enzyme bath to breakdown all the organic materials and binders. Then a thorough rinse on a vacuum RCM, then on to the US clean, US rinse, filter dryer and into a new sleeve. Would the record have been perfect? Probably not. But what most of my customers tell me is the sonic qualities of challenged records have improved and the surface noise has been reduced to the point where they can enjoy the music through the remaining noise. They can now listen to the remaining life that is left in the record.
     
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  5. PerfectVinylForever

    PerfectVinylForever Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    @jon9091 100% valid concern. We have the following safeguards in place to absolutely minimize the risk to your records:
    • We created a shipping mailer for your records with 1" foam around all six sides of the box. The records are in new sleeves and separated by foam record protectors. They fit firmly inside the foam padding to eliminate movement during shipment. Port's testimonial earlier in this thread describes the mailer.
    • During shipping, we can insure the package to any amount you desire.
    • We carry $1,000,000 in general liability insurance. This includes $1,000,000 of coverage for records that are in our possession (act of God) and damaged while being processed.
    • Through our white glove concierge services, we can quote all manner of shipping options. If you truly have a high value collection, we can create a plan to whatever level that would make you comfortable.
    We are not considering selling equipment or franchising our business. The business model for building equipment and managing franchisees is very different than a service based business. With a central processing facility, we can ensure our quality control measures are adhered to and improved upon over time.
     
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  6. Erik Tracy

    Erik Tracy Meet me at the Green Dragon for an ale

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    During the cleaning demo, I was told that the Audio Desk RCM tank was filled with "purified water"; I cannot say whether this is simply distilled water or in fact purified. The rep did say that the Audio Desk RCM was using a detergent/cleaner agent of some sort; I didn't ask for details.

    The Audio Desk RCM does have a holding tank for the water; when the actual bath tank is filled when cleaning an LP, the 'purified' water passes thru a filter to ensure no contamination of the water between cleanings.

    I do like the idea of a service, though. These higher end RCMs are too pricey for my modest budget.
     
    Leonthepro likes this.
  7. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    On that note, has your research yet reached a conclusion on the question of why new records that are cleaned seem to exhibit a dynamic improvement to some ears?
     
  8. Ports

    Ports Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minneapolis
    I used this service and in regard to damage in shipping it would be very hard to crush the records. Packaging is great . Only real concern is lost in transit.
     
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  9. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Well, I agree generally as I am not an advocate of cleaning a brand new record as some of my hifi enthusiasts prefer to do. Granted, there may be a stray particle or two on a new record, but that doesn't bother me. Cleaning a new record places it at risk to add low level noise.. I'd rather have a "blacker floor" with one or two stray discrete ticks.

    Anyway, an example of "better than new" could be LAST record treatment. This vintage product has withstood the test of time for anti-wear properties, anti-static properties, a lower noise floor, and enhanced tracking/fidelity from lowered friction. A record not statically charged remains far cleaner, even when not stored in an audiophile sleeve. When I see a used record with the LAST sticker, I have never encountered a worn, noisy, or bad sounding record.

    I do not know if the "better than new" claim of any record cleaning service can be realized.. but ..
    Of all the snake oil out there, LAST is one product that lives up to its claim.. very possibly these records are better than new!
     
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  10. Erik Tracy

    Erik Tracy Meet me at the Green Dragon for an ale

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    Might just see what can be done with a couple of problematic LPs I have.

    Definitely got some LPs that have stubborn silent passage crackling and ticks. Not periodic popping due to either scratches or non-fill.
     
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  11. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Can an RCM really increase the noise floor with proper fluids and rinsing?
    I thought mine did at first but it seemed to mostly be static.

    And how does LAST even work?
     
  12. JackG

    JackG Forum Resident

    Location:
    NJ
    I enjoyed the walkthrough with Fremer, very informative.
     
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  13. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    I don't know! I have read LAST preservative bonds to about 12 molecular layers deep into the vinyl. LAST recommends application to a new record for best results. Naturally, a used record does benefit, but needs to be clean.

    I believe any time a liquid solution comes into contact with any surface, not only a record, the possibility exists for a remnant deposit on that surface. An aqueous solution coming in to contact with contaminants in the groove, can not be assumed clean, because it is NOT clean. This may seem counter-intuitive, since the idea is to use lab grade water to ensure a clean solution. As this is always the best practice, the moment the solution comes into contact with the groove, the solution becomes contaminated.

    This is a problem, I'll attempt to explain:

    Normally, any solution in contact with dust or debris will tend to suspend it, and partially (or completely) dissolve in solution. Any remnant of solution left by a vacuum type RCM, or bath type such as Spin Clean, or Ultra-sonic, does not remove ALL of the solution. (on a vacuum type, a thin film of solution remains briefly before it evaporates away) The remnant solution evaporates, but the dissolved solids DO NOT evaporate. These will remain on the groove walls, cemented to it like hard concrete. (exactly the same as a hard water deposit, even though distilled water was used) This hardened remnant will never be visible, not on a groove wall. But it is audible which produces very low level crackle or hiss. I have observed this. The ticks may be gone, but this new type of noise more distracting to my ears. The hard deposit on the groove wall is difficult to get rid of. (think water spots on a painted surface, and how tough those are to get rid of.. the groove wall is a microcosm of this) The hard remnant is abrasive, and during play damages the record permanently.

    How can one prevent the solid hard remnant/ deposit on the groove wall? We can't, not entirely. I think this may be minimized by an immediate rinse in lab water (or distilled) I have drawn the analogy to wash and rinse of a painted surface, such as a car finish. We wash, rinse and dry... if one skips the rinse, the car isn't clean. How would a record groove be any different?

    Other risks of record cleaning include cross-contamination, a work space not clean enough, high dust content in air during air dry, drying towels that shed, worn cleaning pads, poorly designed pads which can etch the groove, incomplete cleaning which can impair fidelity and increase noise.

    We as audiophiles are not scientists, but would help our causes if we were. There's a lot of snake oil belief out there.. and the cleaning of a NEW record is highly overrated IMO. My suggestion is not to clean, not a new record. For a used record or dirty record, clean it, but the rinse should be standard practice in every record cleaning regimen. Comparatively the used record, even a bad case with played in dirt, will improve miraculously by cleaning on an RCM.

    Steve VK
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  14. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    But in that case wouldnt the water in the air or from your breath also give a similar hardening effect to debris and put a layer of contamination? Especially in moist environments.
     
  15. Bathory

    Bathory 30 yr Single Malt, not just for breakfast anymore

    Location:
    usa
    8$ per....? wow, hahaha crazy money. more worth your while buying an okki nokki in the long run.
    i can see a couple bucks each, but 8 for just cleaning an LP, that does seem very excessive.
    heck, ill do it for 4 each, and make yoou a cd-r copy of the album, cleaned up a bit to remove some static/ pops / tick noises.

    send me your records......... im a descent dude, send me one for a test, ill clean her, and make a nice copy on a cd-r. or for another $1 ill record it on a Taiyo Yuden cd-r at 96K
     
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  16. If you're comparing your alleged "Okki Nokki RCM service" to this one, you're bringing a knife to a gun fight.
     
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  17. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Depends on the contamination level. Sometimes you only need a knife to skin the cat so to speak.
     
  18. Exactly. And those easily cleaned by your garden variety RCM would be precisely the records you would NOT send. As an avid RCM user for decades, I could still come up with a shortlist of a dozen or two valuable "trouble records" from my thousands that I would consider sending off for the full monty.
     
  19. Bathory

    Bathory 30 yr Single Malt, not just for breakfast anymore

    Location:
    usa









    hahahaha, no fight intended, just having some fun.

    ok, ok, ok .... 3$ :)
     
  20. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Do it and tell us how much it improved the sound.
     
  21. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I've become increasingly skeptical of 'mould release' as a problem, but agree that a proper cleaning, using best practices and equipment suited to the task, can, potentially, take a record that sounds like it suffered groove damage to a high state of play. I also agree that it is time consuming.
    I was very pleased when the first 'designed for LP' ultrasonic machines made their way to market. I think ultrasonic does bring something to the table, but is no substitute for a deep cleaning; only after having "cleaned" some records using one of the well-known and expensive US machines and then working on it more conventional enzymes and velvet type applicators (I like the Walker uni-directional one, but the MoFi and Disc Doctor all work fine), was I able to remove deeply embedded contaminants. Perhaps the initial ultrasonic helped loosen them, but it did not remove them.
    The combination of US and enzyme soak/agitation and pure water rinse gives me the best results. But it is more time consuming and I've invested a considerable amount in equipment.
    Having a "pro" clean your records, or at least your problematic ones, is probably worth trying~ I know in one case, a member of Audiogon who was interested/curious sent me a record and I did my thing. He was able to hear more information from his record. But, he wasn't necessarily interested in investing the time, money or effort in an elaborate cleaning regime.
    I think a badly cleaned record is simply a different type of contamination. Sometimes, I wonder what it is that I'm pulling off the surfaces. Orange gunk? (probably cigarette or other smoke fumes, combined with particulates-- can get glue-y). Paper flecks that you don't see but are embedded? Who knows?
    I'm a big advocate for DIY US at a price point, but you've still got to spend time and effort, even doing it on the 'cheap.' And, at least in my case, I wouldn't give up my vacuum machine-- a big Monks-- to rely solely on ultrasonic.
    I still use reagent grade I for final rinse. It is expensive, but worth it for me.
    I have no affiliation with this new company, but for 5 bucks plus shipping or whatever, is there any real downside?
     
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  22. PerfectVinylForever

    PerfectVinylForever Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Some good points being raised. I have a full day or two of cleanings ahead of me but I'll chime in soon. Oh yeah, Jack White tickets for tonight's show too, the second of the tour. :)
     
    Leonthepro likes this.
  23. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    Back in 2012 I emailed Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs and asked about their cleaning advice after reading a discussion similar to this one.

    Their customer service rep replied, "Yes, we do recommend that you clean your new vinyl. Although it is new, there may be traces of oil or residue left behind by the pressing stamper."

    I've always cleaned all vinyl, new and used. I've never see a downside to always playing nice pristine grooves.
     
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  24. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I would tend to agree, depending on the methods used. Any short of an RCM is better left alone in my eyes as @Bill Hart suggested. And Ive always been a nay sayer to strong chemicals or alcohols because of their ability to also remove the necessary oil compounds in vinyl.
     
  25. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    I'm a devout Nitty Gritty RCM and Pure 2 cleaner user, with occasional pre-cleaning by hand with Disc Doctor brushes and Miracle Cleaner.

    I'm often amazed at the wacky DIY cleaning concoctions people often tout in these threads. In this case I trust the pros.
     
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