Morrow Phono Interconnects and Moving Magnet Cartridges

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Seancito, Jun 15, 2018.

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  1. Seancito

    Seancito Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    I recently purchased a pair of PH4 Morrow phono interconnects used and on sale a few weeks back. They are well built cables and I am also running their speaker sp3 and preamp interconnects as well in my system. Does anyone have any experience with the phono interconnects running them with a moving magnet cartridge. Based on the specifications, the Morrow phono interconnects have pretty high capacitance- the highest that I have ever used with phono interconnects. I emailed Morrow and they stated that they are high capacitance, but it shouldn't make too much of an audible difference with any moving magnet cartridges.

    At first, I was pairing the interconnects with a Shure V15 v-mr cartridge with a Jico stylus and they sounded smooth and detailed and very warm. I recently changed out my cartridge to an Ortofon 2m Bronze that was sitting in my drawer. I was looking for a change from the Shure cartridge and I also ordered an Ortofon 2m Black stylus that will arrive this week. The Ortofon cartridge sounds brighter than the Shure cartridge and I don't know if the capacitance is too high for this cartridge, or if I am just adjusting my ears from the Shure to the Ortofon cartridge. Does anyone have any experience with the Morrow phono interconnects? I'd like to keep them, as I am using all of their products consistently and I like the synergy in my system.
     
  2. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    I have no personal experience with Morrow, so no opinion on the cables specifically, but the capacitance of any and all cable (and of any phono stage input capacitance) will always have an impact on the frequency response of the MM cartridge. The inductance of the cart, capacitance of the cable and phono input, and resistance of the cable and the phono input, combine to form a particular kind of circuit that will have a ringing peaky resonance at a certain frequency and a steep rolloff of frequencies above that resonant frequency. Given the typical inductances of MM carts, that frequency is always going to be in the audible range. The amount of capacitance in the circuit tunes the frequency -- more capacitance tunes it lower, less capacitance tunes it higher. The load resistance dampens the amplitude and ringing of the peak. How much of, and the nature of the audible difference any one of us hear, as ever depends on the individual. And small changes of capacitance aren't going to matter very much -- so you're tuning the center of the resonant frequency up or down by a couple of Hz, in the 5-8kHz range, big deal. But they might, in some part it depends on the listener, and in some part it depends on any physical tip resonance of a cart, and in some part it depends on the sound of the rest of the system. In the case of your switch, although the two carts have different inductances, you may be hearing more in the way of sonic differences than just changes in the resonant frequency tuning.
     
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  3. Seancito

    Seancito Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    So if I have higher capacitance with my cables and it is too much for the cart, will it sound brighter or duller? To me, the Ortofon sounds bright and loud.
     
  4. jfine

    jfine Forum Resident

    I had a pair of PH4's. They are 392pf per meter! To me, that's a lot. I sold them.
     
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  5. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Two things. First, you can't really tell because different people might have different subjective responses to a resonance at 4kHz vs. a resonance at 6kHz, and they might interact differently with some one's in-room response or tweeter performance. A resonant peak at like 4 kHz that's not very well damped might sound pretty bright to someone, even though the highs above 4kHz are really starting to roll off, vs. a resonant peak at 8 kHz, even though that's a higher frequency, because of our hearing sensitivity and subjective response to frequencies in that 3-5kHz range. (Now with you're gear the peaks are probably more in the 8kHz to 9 kHz range I suspect, but just guessing).

    Second, by going from a 500 mH cart to a 630 mH cart, or whatever the specs are, something like that, you've actually lowered the frequency of the resonance, but it sounds brighter to you, but there are multiple variables involved in the swap, not just cart inductance -- different tip masses maybe, and different VTAs in your setup, maybe different stylus shapes and cantilever materials, I don't know, maybe different output levels, all are going to have an impact on both measurable and subjective characters of the sound. I mean you've gone from what a 3 mV output cart to a 5 mV output cart? Of course it sounds louder and hotter. It is. I dunno what level of gain you're using, but maybe you want to step that back, I mean you've upped the signal level into the phono stage by 60%

    Personally I always figure a) most cart manufacturers will give you a capacitance load spec that they recommend for their carts. Adhere to it if you want the spec'ed performance; and b) in general if you can push the resonant frequency up high (and with MC's it's way outside the audible range), and then damp it, you're more likely to get extended flat response out to the theoretical limits of our hearing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
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  6. Seancito

    Seancito Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    I see you have the Belden 8402 cables. I have those too, and I am thinking of moving back to them. I really liked the Morrow cables when I first got them, but now I think they might not work with my Ortofon cartridge.
     
  7. Catcher10

    Catcher10 I like records, and Prog...duh

    I've used his PH3 and Grand Ref PH6. Excellent build quality and the cables are well insulated against RF, I never experienced any hum, noises what so ever in MA phono cables. The world of Lyra made me have to change phono cable because of the very high capacitance, this is not recommended by Lyra.
    For MM carts I am not sure you will hear much issue with a low or high cap cable, the effect is more related to LOMC cartridges.
     
  8. Catcher10

    Catcher10 I like records, and Prog...duh

    The #1 spec for phono cables is shielding, get the cable that gives you the best shielding possible. Not sure the Belden are built this way......
     
  9. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Not true. In fact, the opposite. MCs have much lower inductances than MMs and so the frequency effects of the RLC circuit formed in a typical installation with a LOMC (or for that matter a HOMC) tend to be up in radio frequency range, way out of the audible range. MM's have inductances in the 500, 600, 700 mH range and with typical cable and phono stage capacitances, the resonant frequencies of the RLC circuit formed by the cart inductance, cable capacitance and phono input resistance, pretty much always fall in the audible range and both sonically and measurably affect the frequency response of the system.
     
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  10. Catcher10

    Catcher10 I like records, and Prog...duh

    What a lower cap cable allows you to do with a LOMC is load the phono stage higher for example in the 300-400+ ohm range versus using a high cap cable and loading the phono stage in the 100 ohm range. This could make your cartridge "work harder" and stiffen the compliance/cantilever so the stylus is not riding the groove with a fluid motion.

    I digress as this is not what the OP is asking, my experience with my Nagaoka MP110 and MP200 was I heard no real difference with high cap cable vs low cap cable. Capacitance at the phono stage I could tell a difference, both my Phonomena II and Nova II stages have dip switches to adjust from 100pF to 300pF.
    Cheers
     
  11. Seancito

    Seancito Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    Much of this, including the terminology, is a bit over my head. I am still and always learning, however. My profile lists all of my equipment in case anyone is wondering. The cartridge switch was recent, and I'm not sure if it is me just adjusting to the sound from the Shure V15 v-mr cartridge I had prior, or if this is not the right cable match. I'm hoping it is a proper cable match, since I really like these interconnects and I just purchased them (got a good deal too). I will receive the Ortofon 2m black stylus next week, and I will see how that works out for me.
     
  12. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    By all means, try a lower cap cable, generally -- try to get the cap load to whatever the manufacturer's recommendation is for either cart. But I'd also suggest looking at what phono stage gain you're using. You have a much higher output cart now vs. with the Shure, and if you're using the same levels of gain, well, no doubt you're going to have a different sound. I might think about lowering the levels of gain.
     
  13. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    Keep in mind 8402 isn't really considered an explicitly low capacitance cable either. Not oddly high, but I doubt the Morrows are either. I struggle with the idea anybody has made a "high" capacitance IC. I think this is all just about one cart sounding different then another and cables and capacitance has nothing to do with it.
     
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  14. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Circa 40 pF/foot isn't that much capacitance for an audio cable, but if the manufacturer is recommending a 200 or 300 pF load, and the phono stage already has 100 pF of capacitance at its input, you ain't getting to the specified load with a 400 pF phono cable.

    According to the lit on his website, Morrow uses pretty unusual construction -- separate individually insulated solid core wires in a bundle, which does raise capacitance, and as you go up in the Morrow range, he adds more individually insulated wires in the bundle (these are not, mind you, Litz configuration cables), such that his "Elite" phono cable as 980 pF/m.

    I'm not sure really what the rationale is for this cable geometry, but in particular, I'm not sure it's ideal for a phono cable, especially with MM carts at the "Elite" level of 980 pF/m.
     
  15. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    If you have a problem talk to Mike. He has "trade in" cables that he may be willing to let you try to find what's best for your needs. If not him then the Cable Co. has will let you try cables.

    Just a thought.

    M~
     
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  16. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    I recently tried a set of Morrow PH 5 interconnects and gound I didn’t like the sound as much as the Signal Cable Silver Resolution I’d been using. I have another pair of the Signal cables going from my Copla step up amp to an Icon Audio tube phono stage, and that’s connected to my Fisher 800C with a set of Harmonic Tech hybrid silver/copper interconnects, the cartridge is a Denon 301 MKII low output moving coil.

    I really like Morrow interconnects, so like the OP was surprised at what I found.
     
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  17. Kristofa

    Kristofa Enthusiast of small convenient sound carrier units

    Location:
    usa
    I have an Ortofon 2M Black and Bronze and Silver. I have experimented repeatedly using three different cables from my Pro-Ject Xpression III to my Lounge pre: BJC LC1 (2ft), Morrow PH2 (0.5m), and Morrow PH3 (0.5m).

    Both the Morrow cables do not sound well matched in the chain, as they sound a bit shrill in higher frequencies, and I believe they also accentuate surface noise a bit.

    I consistently return to the BJC cables because they just sound more balanced. That isn’t to say I am not willing to try other cables, but I am hesitant on purchasing the PH1 cables by Morrow and have thought about starting a thread asking about slightly higher capacitance cables than the BJC which people really like.

    I will probably sell both pair of my Morrow Phono cables eventually, as I don’t think I want to shift into MC territory.

    I really look forward to your experiences with the 2M Black and PH4s!
     
  18. Seancito

    Seancito Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    This morning I experimented with three sets of cables with my Ortofon 2m Bronze. They were the Morrow PH4, Blue Jean cables (not sure of the model but the basic ones people refer to on here LC1?), and a pair of Belden 8402. To be honest, there wasn’t too much of a difference with all three. The Morrow had a slightly higher shrill bright sound, but I’m also thinking they might need more break in. The Belden cables sounded the best tbh. I’m going to let the Morrow’s run in a bit more. I also dropped the tail on my tonearm a bit which helped.
     
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  19. johnny q

    johnny q Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bergen County, NJ
    Very interesting feedback - thanks. Especially considering the price difference between Signal Cables and the Morrow PH5 line.
     
  20. johnny q

    johnny q Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bergen County, NJ
    This is what I have heard when using Morrow cables as well. At first, I thought the overall sound was "clearer" when they were in line, but swapping out other cables and doing A/B comparison, it almost seemed like there was some type of low or low mid roll-off with the Morrows. I don't know - maybe it was just my ears.

    Oddly enough, I used the Blue Jeans LC-1 for Phono an heard and unmistakable high end roll-off. Out it came and now sits in a box.
     
  21. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    Exactly, the results were not what I expected at all.
     
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  22. Kristofa

    Kristofa Enthusiast of small convenient sound carrier units

    Location:
    usa
    Are you using Audioquest cables now between TT and preamp?
     
  23. johnny q

    johnny q Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bergen County, NJ
    No - I am using Better Cables Silver Serpent and couldn't be happier.
     
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  24. bluesaddict

    bluesaddict High Tech Welder

    Location:
    Loveland, Colorado
    I have a P6 with Ania and use Morrow PH2. After breaking them in the harshness went away same for my Morrow PH2. The system is very warm and full and the harness is gone.
     
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  25. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo!

    Location:
    NYC
    I happen to use Morrow cables for all my interconnects. GREAT cables.
     
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