Do they make dramas with likable characters anymore?

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by James Slattery, Jun 15, 2018.

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  1. What does “likeable” have to do with being “realistic characters”?:confused:
    And yes there are real people I dislike.
     
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  2. Lightworker

    Lightworker Forum Resident

    Location:
    Deep Texas
    I actually liked the Al Swearrngen character on Deadwood. The writers managed to 'humanize' him enough to expose the vulnerability behind the
    villainous exterior. Not really what I was expecting after years of watching Lovejoy.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. James Slattery

    James Slattery Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Long Island
    I wouldn't exactly call NYPD Blue a modern show. It started 25 years ago!
     
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  4. James Slattery

    James Slattery Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Long Island
    I liked Peggy most of the time. And Joan of course because how can you not like Christina Hendricks, no matter what character she's playing.
     
  5. James Slattery

    James Slattery Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Long Island
    My favorite show from the last decade. I try to watch at least the first episode of almost every new series, with the exception of some sitcoms or cartoon character shows. I almost didn't give Good Wife a try because of the same reasons you stated, that it was being promoted as some chick show. But it not on ABC (stands now for All Broads Channel), it was worth a shot.
     
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  6. Purple Jim

    Purple Jim Senior Member

    Location:
    Bretagne
    Breaking Bad - Despite their faults, I liked Walt and Jesse!
     
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  7. tomhayes

    tomhayes Senior Member

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca
    I think that shows like Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Dexter, etc the POINT is that you see these people as monsters on first viewing, and then because they are telling their own stories you see their actions as being understandable, and then you sympathize with them - and eventually even EMPATHIZE with them ... but you are supposed to eventually realize that they are not likable, not moral, and just awful people and that you had been charmed/manipulated by them.

    The Sopranos was the best example of this in recent memory - when Tony kills Christopher you empathize -- with Tony! (And the Simpsons referenced it brilliantly.)

    I think only the killing I think really had people question their positions is when Silvia kills Adrianna. You "liked" Silvio - but I say scene shows his *true* nature. He's not complex - he's just great at lying about who he is. ALL of their characters on that show are completely despicable - what made the show work was the writers got you to emphasize with them - even when you knew you should not.

    I never sympathized with Walter White and had to stop watching in the mid second season.
    Dexter was just dumb. (But man Doakes was fun.)
    Greg House should have been physicaly beaten and shot at least 5 more times than he was.
    Vic Mackey's children should run from him.
    Don Draper was a clinical narcissist and paranoid.
    BattleStar Galactica tried to draw barrels with current situations to an Earth where BILLIONS of people were murdered and killer robots were LITERALLY (no metaphor here) just minutes away from killing everyone else.
    Patrick Jane was just a plain jerk.
    Batman should kill people.

    I think if more of these shows had FEWER seasons I'd understand the appeal more - you can trick me too - but I wise up in Season 2 or 3.

    I think The Wire and Deadwood were the only two shows that hold up as being watchable for me - and even then it's tough sometimes.

    And one of the most complex "real" characters on TV in the 200s was Perry Cox on Scrubs - and that shouldn't be.

    IMHO.
     
  8. fmfxray373

    fmfxray373 Capitol LPs in the 70s were pretty good.

    The anti-hero goes back to Don Quixote, who may have knocked a few monks off their horses but didn't kill anyone.
    The worst example is the Vic Mackey character who cold-bloodedly kills another law enforcement officer in episode one of the Shield. The Shield would have been much better had Mackey just been a dirty cop instead of a murderer.
    For the same reason I quit watching House of Cards.
     
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  9. Thomas D

    Thomas D Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bradenton, FL
    Dexter had a code and as a result only attempted action against those deserving of t. Soprano had severe anger management problems which led him to inflict pain and suffering, if not death, on those who did something he didn't like. It's been a couple of years since I watched, but it seems this was the case from the get go. There were some dumb things in Dexter (e.g., the ridiculous useage of so much plastics). And one can find dumb things about the Sopranos. Most people who watched Breaking bad did sort of , if not relate to Walter White, at least could understand his motivation and enjoy the show, but everyone is entitled to their own views.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  10. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I agree. I don't need likeable characters to enj0y a show or movie. Interesting story, good writing, good pacing, and the suspension of disbelief are much more important to me.

    I kind of relate the likeable characters requirement to people who need the ending of a movie to be positive, or to people who do not want an show or movie that takes advantage of the viewer (like where all of a sudden the viewer realizes the story was all a dream or somehow not what we had thought). To me these are not good or bad things...it's all in how they are executed.
     
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  11. I haven't watched most of the shows that you mentioned. And I've only watched Breaking Bad intermittently. I think I've watched all of the episodes of the first two seasons. But I think you have Walter White wrong. I don't think he was a cauldron of Evil just waiting to break open. Walter was Tempted with a capital T, that's all. And he found himself cornered by his choices and their consequences. Gradually. Insidiously. You can see the anguish corroding the guy. But after a while, he's cut himself off from the person he used to be, and can't figure out a way to return. Because there is no way for him to return, without accepting a massive load of unpalatable consequences. And even then, he can't undo the past. He's made one bad choice after another, some of them empowered by his recurrent success at thinking on his feet to get out of very perilous situations (albeit sometimes with the aid of dumb luck.) Coming up with tactical solutions in a tight spot has worked well enough for him that it fuels his hubris. Which encourages him to keep rolling higher. That classic mistake.
     
  12. Brenald79

    Brenald79 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    An unlikable character I like s Noah Soloway from The Affair.
     
  13. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    The problem to me is TV shows trying to sustain twists and turns that they make their characters unlikable sooner or later.

    I think LOST had more likable characters and it was really the last show that I can say I didn't really hate the people...well most of them anyway.

    But yes back to the original idea, yeah come to think of it, most TV shows have pretty crappy human beings.

    Call me crazy, but I liked Don Draper though. He had a lot of flaws, but there was something about him that made me root for him and want to see his journey to the end.
     
  14. George Co-Stanza

    George Co-Stanza Forum Resident

    Location:
    America
    Great summation!

    I will never buy that Walter was always this evil guy that just happened to bust out. Jane's death is a good example. What was his gut reaction when he immediately saw she was choking? To hurry around to save her. But in those few seconds, the realization hit him that, "Wait, this woman is turning Jesse against me and threatening to expose me." So, he let her choke on her own vomit and die. And he was so shaken by it that he cried. If he was evil to the bone, his gut reaction wouldn't have been to save her, and he wouldn't have been emotionally affected after she died.

    Note: I am not saying that Walter was a good guy in the literal sense, just that shades of gray like this demonstrate why a character like Walter White can be likable.
     
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  15. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    You see in that scene he didn't really care about her, he cared about getting caught in some way shape or form. Walt was a weasel that rarely truly cared about how other people felt, he only cared about how it would effect him.

    He wasn't emotionally effected at all in my opinion. He had a very inward self masturbatory outlook on his life and I wondered how much he even cared about his own family in that regard. He deceived people constantly. While he at times showed some emotion to Jesse, I think it still served his grand ideas in his head that he was the master of everyone's destiny.

    I found very little to like about him, but yet I was still entertained by the show. It was like a train wreck to me. Gus is hard not to watch as well. That is Esteban from Fresh!

    "Look, time is money and money is time little homey, and right now you are costing me a lot of both!"
     
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  16. Hot Ptah

    Hot Ptah Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    I disagree with the OP’s premise. I like Burt, Lane, Joan and Peggy in Mad Men.

    I like Richard in Boardwalk Empire.

    I like the two leads in Divorce.

    I like almost all of the characters in Treme. To me it was a collection of mostly highly likeable characters.

    I like most of the characters in This Is Us.

    I like Saul, Mike, Kim and several other characters in Better Call Saul.

    These are just a few examples. I think that likeable characters are common in drama today.
     
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  17. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Ah, the whole point of Breaking Bad is that Walt eventually realized how awful he had become and he then moved heaven and earth to overcome his problems, save his family, save Jesse, and get rid of all the bad guys. As far as I'm concerned, he redeemed himself. Don Draper was a neurotic, damaged guy who lived a lie, and by the end of the series, studied meditation and philosophy, which opened his mind up to his own limitations... and created the most memorable ad campaign of that entire era. So you forget that sometimes, the story has to do with how the characters evolve over time.

    I don't think Dexter was "dumb" per se, but he was never really able to overcome his problems, and everything went nuts towards the end. That did not go well.
     
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  18. BeatlesObsessive

    BeatlesObsessive The Earl of Sandwich Ness

    Gotta agree loved that leverage cast. I thought Ian McShane was a great cast on Deadwood just as in John Wick he plays that character just right to the point where bad guy/ good guy becomes irrelevant. Deadwood was full of creeps and scoundrels but also actors you like to watch be scoundrelly Gerald McRaney, Franklin Ajaye, the other brother Daryl, Timothy Olyphant, Brad Dourif.. a cast of bad guys who know how to play that on the tightrope edge. On Mad Men I think Vincent Kartheiser handles his role very well. But as fair as I'd like to be I can't get there with Elizabeth Moss ... she has her chops but the millennial is strong in this one and she just clearly WASN'T around before 1980.
     
  19. Nice Marmot

    Nice Marmot Nothin’ feels right but doin’ wrong anymore

    Location:
    Tryon NC
    Funny you should mention that scene in Breaking Bad. That was the last season I saw of that show. Granted, it was going through some sort of weird release and half seasons of episodes at the time, but I never wanted to pick up watching it again after that point.
     
  20. Taxman

    Taxman Senior Member

    Location:
    Fayetteville, NY
    I am a big Bill Hader fan but my wife and I are struggling with his so far failed attempts to redeem himself in Barry on HBO. I have two episodes to go, so I'm giving him a chance. Hoping for some uplift.
     
  21. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    I agree.

    While it was a train wreck that is hard to turn away from, I think Walt went into the land of damaged and despicable after that point. The only heaven and earth that he moved after that point, is because of the messes he made himself after his narcissistic qualities went full force.

    Hank and how he was treated others was a good example (though never really loved him either). It is hard to like a guy that loves his own creation over spending more time with his family, friends, and everyone else that will have mental problems for years to come from this bastard of a man.

    There is very little to like about Walt, but still liked the show as a guilty pleasure. Who would think that Saul would be less of a sleaze bucket. lol
     
  22. fmfxray373

    fmfxray373 Capitol LPs in the 70s were pretty good.

    I think having Walter cover up the death of the kid that was bicycling in the desert during the train robbery was crossing the line. Accessory to murder after the fact.
     
  23. James Slattery

    James Slattery Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Long Island
    Just thought of another one. I'm Dying Up Here. Who's likable on this show?
     
  24. Lightworker

    Lightworker Forum Resident

    Location:
    Deep Texas
    All of the er..."European-American" male characters on Treme were annoying beyond belief. The music was boss though.
     
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  25. Lightworker

    Lightworker Forum Resident

    Location:
    Deep Texas
    There's a...um..."structural" reason for that...

    [​IMG]
     
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