What to expect from really good or high end turntables?

This isn't just about the turntable itself either, it's the combination of cartridge-turntable (& phono stage) & swapping these about can make a significant difference. Case in point...

I use an RP-10 clone with an Audio Note IQ3 & these seem to have a wonderful synergy, sounding 'just right'. Ortofon 2M Black & AT150ANV are good MM carts but ultimately, neither satisfied me on this turntable (2M too clinical/sterile & AT 'bright').

Moving over to a Technics SL1200G, the 2M Black sounds totally different - organic, balanced & silky smooth, with excellent bass response whereas the AT150ANV remains bright but with a tighter deeper bass than on the Rega. The Ortofon is my 'favourite' cartridge on this table.

The IQ3 on the Technics sounds virtually identical to a Roksan Corus Black (another Goldring variant) but inferior to the way it sounds on the Rega (different rhythm & timing - more 'mechanical', almost the opposite to swapping the 2M Black - go figure?).

As I don't use MC cartridges (never will) & having owned/moved on from Linn, Clearaudio & Michell tables, I guess ~£4k is my ceiling. Not regarded as 'high end' but in my system these two satisfy me more than anything else I've heard.

 

I enjoyed the video. The poster made some reasonable points, chief among them that for many/most users, simple competence in turntable function is the primary consideration. He also aimed the video at users who might not have a lot of money to spend on the hobby, which is 99% of buyers.

As far as percentages of "betterness" to be found as one spends more money in the hobby, it seems to me that the entry level gets you something like 85-90% of the way there. I have a Fluance RT81 and it simply works without fuss and makes competent sound. My Marantz TT-15 is better, but mostly in functional/ease-of-use aspects, lesser so in the sound category. I have no doubt that the VPI Primes and Prime Scouts (and beyond) of the world are better yet, but for far more money than 99% of buyers would find reasonable.

The video above is aimed at the average buyer who intends to limit their turntable purchase expenditure to $300 or so, because they want to spin records. The reason there are so many turntables sold at that price level is because that is the price level that almost all buyers consider reasonable. The Prime Scout or (insert model here) buyer doesn't inhabit the same space in the hobby as those buyers, to whom that poster speaks.

There is something to be said for the thrust of this arguments, IMO, and I say that as someone who loves the hobby and may consider buying "better" equipment over time. I take caution though not to confuse my fascination with tinkering in certain aspects of the hobby with an obsessive chase for "better". Tinkering is fun. Chasing "better" is a never-ending, no-win ticket to nowhere, again all in my opinion.

 

Technics themselves use the 2M Black when showing the SL-1200G, so they're probably really a good match. Some reviews say the SL-1200G sounds "bright", have you experienced that? If it did, the 2M Black would probably enhance this brightness I suppose, but what you say is quite the opposite. I wonder if this brightness is real. Fremer and others mentioned it, it puzzles me.

 

Yes, in my experience the table can tend towards slight brightness (& I mean 'slight'), maybe 'lively'+ clean, tight, very deep bass would be a more appropriate summary. That suits my type of listening, in a system which is fast and very 'live' sounding. The brightness Fremer refers to and I notice is like very high end digital music without glare - "what you see is what you get" I suppose. I'm also rather OCD with alignment & azimuth which removes harshness from a poorly set up cartridge.

Cartridge matching plays a big part of course - the Grado Presige 2 variants on this table sound very smooth and listenable, quite laid back but still with excellent treble so I guess this table plays to their strengths with almost nothing of their weaknesses. As I also posted above, the 2M Black turned into an entirely different beast... the Roksan Corus Black and even an ancient Ortofon VMS20E sound almost as good as this.

 

Another who likely has no experience with a high end setup. He fails to recognize that all materials have a resonance that must be mitigated to reduce any colorations to the sound. Cartridges, even cheap ones, are extremely effective resonance pick up devices. Entry level tables don't control resonances as well.

The better tables also create less mechanical noise and it's very easy to hear between tracks in AB comparisons. Case in point would be my Thorens TD-166 vs my AS Wow XL. The Thorens is a goood table and gets the job done. It keeps stable speed and allows the cartridge to extract a lot of detail, including its bearing noise, which is considerably louder than that of the Wow.

 

I might agree with that, or he might lack some listening ability.

 

I live in Sao Paulo, in which city do you live?

 

Musical flow.

Fast attack .

Ethereal sound quality.

Absence of mechanical noise.

Magic.

 

I think this sums it up nicely. How we listen, what do we listen for.

Take two turntable power supplies, both capable of driving a turntable at a steady 33 1/3.

In Hi-Fi terms, the bass and treble have hardly changed: you could say far less than 20%, BUT, in musical terms, the piano can sound like it has been tuned and played by a better pianist. For many these musical improvements that a better turntable power supply can bring are significant, if not priceless.

The musical improvements introduced by a better source, simply can not be found with a lesser performing turntable using amps and speakers costing tens of thousands.

 

Top Post Randoms.
Source info, use it or lose it!

 

Why? Just curious.

 

Curitiba

 

See, this is what I'm talking about in terms of how different our subjective experiences of these mechanical differences and differences in the mechanical resonances and noises of these vinyl playback systems are. I have no idea what this experience is like. I've never heard one turntable vs. another make a recording of Thelonious Monk or Vladimir Horowitz sound like a recording by a " better" pianist or different pianist or a playing on a "better tuned" piano.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what you're hearing or how you're describing what you're hearing, I'm just saying it doesn't describe any subjective experience I've ever had or that I can relate to.

I've heard plenty of off center records, and in the old days when I was a kid and everyone had a cheap turntable, plenty of record players, with poor pitch stability that made a piano recording sound mighty sour or worse, but you're talking about "a turntable at a steady 33 1/3," so you're talking about something different: the way you subjectively experience which I presume is differences in motor vibration breakthrough and possibly motor torque cogging on platter rotation from differences in motor control. I think we all know that motor performance, motor isolation, motor vibration, motor EMF radiation, etc., are big issues in turntable design, and that means not just the motor itself but how the motor is driven, but it's less clear to me that we all hear the differences in noise and tracking and rotational stability from motor related changes the same way when it comes to how we describe their impact on the music we're listening to.

 

It's the point where you can take your mind completely off of the turntable and can focus on the music.
No more questioning if that note wavers slightly because of speed changes, or if the sound is weak because the table is over-damped, or if the treble is rolled off to much because of the table's lush character, or if that sound is a little edgy because of tonearm resonance.
Instead you are blown away by the music, not distracted by these questions.
Any short comings in the sound are related to the recording and the record, not the playback system.

 

I do not think there are many more things to expect than constant and correct speed, low rumble and immunity to external vibrations. From the controlled blind tests made during the years, you don’t need to spend a fortune to get top notch performance.

 

Do you feel you have achieved that with your GR?

 

Some get that from 100$ tables and some dont even get it with 100,000$ tables though. Really subjective.

 

1. Mucho detail without weirdness of any kind, aka natural.
2. Wanna spend too much time spinning records.
3. Makes you question the whole digital thing (in the back of your mind). Maybe your brain really can detect something an audio analyzer cannot????
4. More facial wrinkles (good kind, from the increased smiles)

 

I won't use MC for many reasons & partly because I am totally happy with the sound I have (...heard a lot of MCs & they are very nice, different of course). Having a replaceable stylus is a must for me - I'm in my twilight years & been content like this since the mid 70's:

I like to swap over to a lower grade stylus for background listening & extend the life of the main one. I use lots of carts & have multiple variations of styli.

Also to quickly swap to a new spare stylus & compare to the in-use one to determine wear & then replace a worn stylus immediately without sending away for re-tipping (or replace one if I accidentally break it).

I spend a lot of time aligning, checking azimuth etc & only need to do this once with an MM cartridge with just an occasional check to make sure nothing drifted off.

Most of my MM or MI variants are regarded as the highest in their respective ranges & the best can sound extremely good if matched carefully with cabling & phono loading. I realised many years ago that the best hifi is all about differences not necessarily 'better', whatever that means.

Finally, I don't need a step-up or another costly phono stage (not strictly true because between my homes here & the USA I have five phono stages - two of them are MM/MC).

(...by the way, down to California tomorrow for the rest of the summer & I take a selection of styli with me for use there, couldn't do that so easily with MC)

 

A SL-1200GR showed up here for sale at a reasonable price and I'm itching and scratching like crazy. Only thing that is stopping me is the desire for a G.

 

absolutely. i bet most of us fall in an area in the middle that is more closely gathered?

 

I don’t hear bright. What some may discern as bright may be less smearing of transients, etc when compared to a belt drive turntable. That’s what I hear compared to my previous Clearaudio Concept. In other words, it’s just more accurate.

 

Excellent question and very timely!
There are times where I notice (mainly on older jazz reissues) where keyboards or horns occasionally have a noticeable but slight "ragged" edge to them, like a staccato sound that shouldn't be there.
It is absolutely the one and only complaint I would have about this turntable, that it may not be refined enough.
However I just now went online and played the linked recording- Baby Face Willette, "Face to Face"- listen for sound of the keyboard at 2:40 or so. This ragged edge is in the recording, not caused by the turntable!
I am very happy to discover this because I would have traded in for the "G" if I knew it would get rid of this issue- but it wouldn't and I don't have to.

So yes, I am there with the GR. Finished. But it did take a somewhat expensive cartridge and phono preamp to complete the system.

 

Well if we want to talk about in general then Id think even less since most people are happy Crosley owners. But if we just take this forum then maybe.
But at any level someone can say thats not enough of its overkill. Im mostly interested in whats actually a tangible improvement though. Then we can discuss if you think its worth the money or not.

 

I’ve done that too. Verify distortion in the recording by listening to the digital counterpart. I’ve yet to hear any issue caused by the G itself, and with a appropriately advanced stylus shape you won’t get audible distortion there either unless the record is damaged/defective.

That said, you may want to try the KAB fluid damper. IMO it is a subtle improvement, but makes a worthwhile difference for the price, giving deeper bass and better “blackness” from which the music emerges. It also allows you to use a wider variety of cartridges and alleviates some issues caused by warped records.