2-channel SACD worse than Redbook?

At least on my system anyway...

Denon AVR-3803
Sony CE595 SACD player

5.1 SACDs are just fine. Pink Floyd's DSOTM is breathtaking.

2-channel SACDs, which unfortunately are where some of my favorite artists reside (Toto - Hydra, the 3 Journey releases) sound like garbage because of the complete lack of bass. Absolutely no LFE information ever makes it to the subwoofer.

Playing redbook material on a CD player to analog L/R inputs on the Denon gets me what I want - based on crossover settings chosen in the Denon, the appropriate bass information routes to the sub or mains or sub+mains, depending on what I choose. on 2-channel SACD, nothing, regardless of settings.

If I'm understanding SACD correctly, stereo SACDs are 2.0 not 2.1, so in theory they should act like redbook CDs. However, since the connection is 5.1, the receiver/crossover/whatever is expecting the .1 to containg the LFE, which in this case it does not, so rather then sending the bass "portion" of the 2.0 to the speakers/sub the way it does for redbook, it all just disappears?

Majorly disappointing.

Any fix other than to never buy any stereo SACDs?

Oh, and the SACD multichannel mix of Meat Loaf's Bat Out of Hell is the most abysmal abomination on the planet. I can't believe they actually released it. I would have had more enjoyment burning 16 $1 bills.

 

I think it must be your player, because I only listen to stereo SACD's, and they all sound fantastic, with plenty of bass.

Try doing a direct run from the stereo outputs on your SACD player to a pair of AUX inputs on your receiver.

 

You need to re-adjust your bass-management settings in order to get the full spectrum of sound either to your large full-range speakers or to split the bass into your sub-woofer. I love 2 channel SACD, the bass is breathtaking.

 

Surely there is a fix. I don't have a complex system like yours - and there is oodles of bass.

 

Yes, particularly with this SACD player because it DOES have the proper bass management. Refer to the manual, but basically you want to select 2 channel + subwoofer as your playback mode if you want to sub to work with stereo material.

 

Polksda,

You have nothing wrong with your system! You are just missing an external crossover. Your connection to the Denon 5.1's will NOT give you any bass (L+R 2-ch) to the subwoofer. The analog in's on the Denon all provide subwoofer bass. Not the 5.1's for 2-ch. If you add an external crossover such as an Outlaw ICBM ($200.00) or a M&K ($300.00) this will make your system sound like night and day in 2-ch SACD and 5.1. The Sony should be set to Multi-Direct and 2-ch Direct if you decide to get an external crossover (analog). If your speakers were very large(drivers or transmission line type) this would not be a problem. Good luck.

John

 

You didn't mention what sort of inputs you have on your subwoofer.

My subwoofer has a variety of inputs. I use different inputs depending
on the source.

My scenario is as follows:


1.) My Sony (775? - the 5 disc changer that came out several years back) SACD
player has a "R and L plus sub" setting. As others have stated, you can try that.
I AVOID this setting because I don't like the effect that the bass management
in the Sony has on the overall sound. Your mileage may vary. I believe the
settings for multichannel and stereo are independent of each other - AND - you
have to have the player set up for stereo to configure the stereo settings. Namely,
you cant set up stereo bass management while listening to the multichannel
portion of a disc (which may seem obvious to most - but it can be confusing
if you're looking for WHERE? to change the parameters on your player).

2.) I don't use the speaker wire inputs into my subwoofer.

3.) I use a Radio Shack switch box that was originally designed for composite
video (yellow) and stereo audio (red and white). The box has three
inputs and one output. I only use two of the inputs.

4.) I run two cables from my receivers R-f and L-f pre-out into the red
and white connectors for "Selection One" of the switch box.

5.) I run one cable from my receivers SUB-out into the yellow connector
for "Selection Two" of the switch box.

6.) I run three cables from the output of the switch box into the subwoofer.
The red and white outputs from the switcher go into the R&L line level
inputs on my sub. The yellow output from the switcher goes into the
SUB line level input on my sub.


When I listen to a SACD stereo source, I select position one on the switcher.
This disconnects the subwoofer from the SUB pre-out of my amplifier. This
isn't a problem with a stereo source - because nothing is being sent by
the receiver (as you noted in your post).

When I listen to a SACD mch source, I select position two on the switcher.
This disconnects the subwoofer from R&L pre-out of my amplifier. This is
a problem with a mch source - because sound is being sent to the R&L
pre-outs - and my subwoofer vendor specifically warned against a situation
where I feed THREE inputs into my sub simultaneously.


So basically I use the stereo input pair on my subwoofer when listening
to a stereo SACD (or DVD-A) source. And I use the sub input when listening
to a multichannel SACD (or DVD-A) source.

In practice, however, I rarely touch the switcher box. The basic reason
being that stereo, dolby, and DTS feeds given to my receiver via a digital
connection are automatically handled by my reciever (which somehow knows
to extract a 0.1 channel from a low-res stereo feed).

The only problem sources are hi-res 2.0 sources (as you noted).


I will warn, however, that my set-up is unusual and really only makes
sense because I have 5 full range speakers that I wanted to send
a full range signal too.... If I had a different speaker configuration,
I would probably have invested in an outlaw audio bass manager.
Those aren't terribly expensive - but in my case - all it would have given
me was auto sensing between stereo and multichannel (which would
have been nice - but hasn't been a problem for me - since I don't
listen to hi-res 2.0 sources - often).

 

My bad. I hadn't bothered to read the CE595 manual all the way through. I had to change the 2-channel setting from its default of "direct" to "2Ch + SW". Now I've got bass out the ying-yang.

One aspect of the player that is a bit confusing is when you can change certain settings and when you cannot. For example, with a 2-channel SACD in the player, the "LVL ADJ" option in the menu is never available. However, when I eject that disc and go to the menu, I can get that option to come up, BUT regardless of whether I have the 2-channel mode set to "direct" or "2Ch + SW", I am never permitted to adjust the subwoofer level. When I attempt to do so, I get "NOT IN USE". I can, however, adjust the subwoofer level in 5-channel, if I change the 5-channel mode from "direct" to "5 L + SW".

Not intuitive at all (to me at least).

Instead, I'm using the receiver setting to adjust subwoofer level; I just need to remember to check it before/after movies....

 

I second that!

That’s the exact opposite of what to expect. My Denon DVD-2900 in a VERY revealing 2-channel system has excellent, deep bass extension with SACD, MUCH better then Redbook and with much more detail. That’s partly what SACD is all about, that vinyl-like bass and mids that Redbook just doesn’t do well.

I’d either try another player or check your setup.

 

I still don't think that polksda fully comprehends the bass management issue, or maybe polksda is looking for un-natural amounts of bass. In my system, I have the settings in my Sony SACD player set to "large" as far as my front right/left speakers go, so I am not filtering out any of the bass frequencies. I am sending the entire audio band to my main front right/left speakers and I absolutely love the bass. Put on the SACD of DEEP PURPLE LIVE AT THE BBC on the Audio Fidelity label with your sub "off" and your main speakers set to "large", the amount of real bass is amazing. There is way more bass on a 2 channel SACD of the same title than there is on vinyl or redbook CD.

 

That would not be unusual. I would not be surprised if most audiophiles and music lovers here on this forum (with its accent on rock/pop) did not go through a period of boosting the bass. Some may still be in that period.

 

Exactly, boosting the bass by adding a few decibles in the 60-125 hz region might seem like a fun to increase the "oomph" in your favorite music, but it is not natural. My current hook-up is analouge out from my Sony SACD player to analouge in on my Sony receiver, by-passing all DSP circuits. I just pass the signal through the amplifier without altering it at all, and I really like the sound of the music as reproduced in this manner. It is not boomy, but it is sweet and mellow.

 

Generally people use subwoofers when they don't have large full range stereo speakers. This is the situation in my case. It's not an ideal situation, but it's the best compromise for the money for me.

So if I set my speakers to large, then there would be an unnaturally LOW amount of bass. I think polksda fixed the problem he was having within the scope of his own equipment.

He stated in his first post that bass is okay for all other sources than SACD stereo, so you're right that he didn't understand the bass management, but thanks to the people on this forum, he clearly does now.

 

Since polksda has not filled in his profile in terms of the equipment he has, we have no way of knowing whether his main speakers are capable of reproducing low or even mid bass. I assumed that he was using small speakers up front because he said that 5.1 mixes sounded good, stereo cd's sound good because he has his system set up to use the sub when playing stereo cd's, but stereo SACD's don't sound good because his sub doesn't get used in SACD 2.0 mode. Instead of assuming that he just wants an unnatural amount of bass, I assumed that his main speakers were simply too small to properly reproduce lower frequencies. Certainly that isn't the ideal scenario, but it's what some people have to deal with for one reason or another.

 

Polksda, I also use the Outlaw ICBM and all base below 40 (adjustable, depending on your mains) is directed to the sub with 2-channel SACD. Before installation of the base management component, I was a little disappointed with stereo SACD too. The ICBM was a good investment ($200) but keep in mind that you'll need another run of analog interconnects which pushes the price up a bit.