2-Inch videotape question

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by James Slattery, Feb 14, 2019.

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  1. James Slattery

    James Slattery Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Long Island
    Does anyone know what was the largest size reel that was made? The biggest I've seen are 96 minutes but I had someone telling me they thought that there was such a thing as 2-hour reels. I've been through many tape archives, including CBS and HBO I've never seen anything bigger than 90 minutes (96 to be exact).
     
  2. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Oh, yeah, there were definitely 2-hour 2" reels. I think the only machines that could handle them were Ampex AVR-1's, but there was a company called Merlin that replaced the motors, servos, and other mechanisms to allow using the bigger reels. We used 2-hour reels every Friday night to record The CBS Late Movie and delayed it to run on Sunday night at our station in Tampa during the 1970s. In some cases, we did a "changeover" and recorded part of a long show on one machine and the second part on another machine, then manually played them back in synchronization and made a "seamless switch" as best we could. This was extremely difficult in the days before automation and timecode, where all we had was luck and good timing.

    By the time 1" C came out in 1979-1980, they eventually came out with 3-hour videotape reels, which were needed for super-long movies and network telecasts. But the 3-hour 1" C VTRs were fairly rare -- I only saw one of them, to my knowledge, I think a Sony BVH-2180.
     
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  3. Dan C

    Dan C Forum Fotographer

    Location:
    The West
    Wow! I never realized there was anything over an hour. A 2 hour quad reel must’ve weighed more than a first grade kid! :laugh:

    dan c
     
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  4. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    Oh great, now I've got visions of video tape machines with spinning toddlers.
     
  5. jtiner

    jtiner Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maine
    For movies split across two reels, I could get the second reel roughed in, then turn up the audio monitor and use the capstan override switch (VR1200's) on the off-air machine to get the two synchronized. I used audio to sync. because I couldn't see the two VTR CRT's at the same time while working the capstan override. But in all my time, I never saw anything bigger than a 90 minute reel pass through the station. As Dan C said, I wouldn't have wanted to heft a 2 hour reel.
     
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  6. seacliffe301

    seacliffe301 Forum Resident

    My only 2" experience was with Ampex AVR-2's, which maxed out at :96m. Those reels were heavy enough, I can't imagine how much a 2 hr reel weighed. Never even saw one.
    Regarding Merlin mods, one company I worked for had a modified Sony BVH-1000 or 1100 1" C that was modified to handle 2 hour reels. IIRC, that was a Merlin mod as well.
    The BVH-2000 rendered that all obsolete with it's factory stock 2hr capability. Never saw a 3hr 1". That must have been a sight.
     
  7. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    And here I was thinking I had it rough having to lug a three-quarter inch "portable" and a three tube camera.
     
  8. Bern

    Bern JC4Me

    Location:
    Allegan, Michigan
    Hmmmm.I thought the longest reel was 96 minutes. (15ips). I worked at a station in Anchorage (KAKM) where we used to tape delay (especially the kids block) and we would get 3 hours of playback by installing the 5 mil head assembly and running them at half speed. (7 1/2ips). The actual drop in quality was negligible. (unless you had some tape damage..then it was noticeable). We were running the RCA TR70's. Later had a TR 60 that was used mainly for record only. In Michigan..we ran Ampex 1200's and had one 1100a. (90 minutes reels). Also had the Hitachi HR300 (one inch helical) (think that was the model)..that ran 2 hour tapes and COULD run 3 hour tapes in you moved back the motor reels and adjusted the servos setting. We had 1 machine (out of 5) set that way. Which isn't a good idea if that machine is down. We eventually set it back to 2 hour and did a multi-tape changeover for longer stuff.

    I think some of the longer run times mentioned for quads was by having them run at half speed. (IMO). I certainly could be wrong. Also I loved the quad beasts...they just ran and tape interchange wasn't a problem. (unlike the 1").

    Bern

    Here's some pix of some old machines..
    The Quadruplex Park Tour
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  9. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    I had heard quad machines were incredibly finicky, and that if you wanted to ensure correct playback you would actually send the head stack along with the tape.
     
  10. Bern

    Bern JC4Me

    Location:
    Allegan, Michigan
    Not in my experience, but perhaps in later years if you wanted an optimal xfer I suppose that could have been the case. I can't recall ever having problems with an out of house tape with quad (besides shedding). One inch bike tapes were hit and miss.

    The 3/4 format you mentioned also interchanged well. (except Panasonic 3/4 machines which mechanically were bad...the Sony's were great).
     
  11. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    All those old Panasonic clunkers, making noise like a truck on a rough road, totally sure it was tearing the tape up. I still have a working 3/4 inch JVC edit deck, that handles tapes like a dream.
     
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  12. Bern

    Bern JC4Me

    Location:
    Allegan, Michigan
    JVC always got a bad rap (not deserved IMO) ..(Junior Video Corp)...the gear I came across seemed to be good to excellent.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  13. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    Looking at one of those a second ago, pre-modification; doesn't look like enough real estate on top there to even fit a larger reel. How much bigger we talking about?

    Lucky you were on the East Coast for network delaying. Mountain Time Zone delaying news events were always crapshoots. Ya got a spacewalk interrupting a soap opera, okay not much of an issue. But then, Captain Astro's umbilical breaks, and off he goes into space! :yikes: What ya got, is one Master Control engineer jumping to take the live feed (two hours into the "future"), and half the Management apoplectic because they've gotta re-plan the entire afternoon block.

    My last day at my first TV gig was the day President Reagan got shot. The Engineering staff learned soooooo many new words that day...
     
  14. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    Here's an image of the one I have, a JVC CR-850U:

    [​IMG]

    Sucker's built like a tank, definitely up to the quality of Sony's BVU series. I've never had to replace the belts because, as far as I can tell, it has no belts - just a whole bunch of motors. Probably should replace the pinch roller, but it's still playing my tapes just fine.

    This is the incredibly strong shelf above my desk:
    [​IMG]

    Turntable, Laserdisc, S-VHS, Beta II Hi-Fi, PAL/SECAM deck, JVC 3/4" and TBC.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  15. seacliffe301

    seacliffe301 Forum Resident

    Can I interest you in a Beta I recorder to go with these?
     
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  16. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    My Beta II/III deck can play Beta I. Only major formats I don't have are BetaCam and DigiBeta.
     
  17. jtiner

    jtiner Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maine
    I think that was somewhat true early on, but not later. I know I never had a tape cut on another machine that wouldn't play; we had five machines, and we received a good amount of stuff like Dr. Who from syndication services. Now, occasionally a tape would play fine but with some visible artifacts if it was cut on a new head, then played with a really worn head (or vice-versa). The geometry would be off enough that it couldn't be corrected even with the adjustment that was supposed to compensate for that (guide height). Probably more important for proper playback was having the machine itself properly set up electronically. I had a routine that I used to perform every morning setting the capstan oscillator, etc., etc. after the electronics had been on for 30 minutes.
     
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  18. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    That was only true in the 1950s. Once color video recording happened, Ampex and RCA exchanged patents and everything became much more compatible. Better time-base correction and dropout compensation solved a lot of interchange problems, though I can recall (in my very brief stint as a 2" tape op) having to get out the Allen wrenches and really tweak the alignment to get a problematic tape to play. But a good VR-2000 or AVR-1 could play damn near anything.

    Famously, Ampex took a backwards tape, loaded it (oxide in) onto a machine at NAB, and the AVR-1 sorta/kinda played the tape UPSIDE-DOWN. It broke up and looked bad, but there was a picture you could see there. Amazing machine.

    Yep, been there, done that. I was not a videotape operator in my stint in broadcasting, but I was the guy on the other end who had to make the actual live switch on the air.
     
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  19. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    What about editing 2" tape? Having edited 1/4" audio tape with a grease pencil and a block (not too bad a chore), I can't imagine what physically splicing 2" tape must have been like.
     
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  20. Bern

    Bern JC4Me

    Location:
    Allegan, Michigan
    Here's a shot of the Hitachi 1" and the motor positioning. (A HR230 and not a 300 as I said).
    [​IMG]
     
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  21. Bern

    Bern JC4Me

    Location:
    Allegan, Michigan
    Here's a spec sheet for the AVR-1...they indeed have 2 hour time listed (@15ips). I have never seen a 2 hour reel. (scroll down the pdf for specs)
    http://www.digitrakcom.com/literature/AMPEX AVR1.pdf
     
  22. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Very early machines, yes. By around 1958-1960 less of an issue as heads and headwheels got much more consistent in their manufacture. And tape interchange became less of an issue.
     
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  23. jtiner

    jtiner Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maine
    I never did it myself, but I know you couldn't make the splice anywhere - it had to be exact so that the spacing remained correct and synchronizing pulses always fell in the correct spots. Otherwise, the VTR would lose servo lock and there'd be a bad picture breakup on playback. And to know where the right spot was, you had to apply a special solution to the tape that would make the magnetic patterns visible, then you could see where to cut. Other than that the process was as you'd expect - a special jig/block, non-magnetic tools, etc. I think the solution Ampex made was called "Edi-View" or something like that. Of course, later on electronic editing was developed so that you could perform insert or add-on edits on the fly on the VTR as long as the machine and the video source were synchronized. We had one RCA machine with electronic editing used for production.
     
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  24. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    I had also heard the name "Magnar fluid" and is also occasionally used in speaker voice coils as a coolant.
     
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  25. Bern

    Bern JC4Me

    Location:
    Allegan, Michigan
    @12:35 in is an example of a manual splice.
     
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