33RPM and 45RPM

I've been researching this topic on the forum but still have a question. To my ears a 45RPM 12" single will sound better than the same song on LP. All the usual criteria apply, such as bass punch, treble extension and clarity, etc etc.

However, I'm discovering that I often find the same track on LP is more engaging and enjoyable. This is not because of the way they sound (i.e. warmer), but something musical. The 45RPM singles often seem somewhat stiff and/or the rhythm is not so good, by comparison.

I've played the few 33RPM 12" singles that I own and they seem very good - better than the LP.

Am I alone in this? If not, any thoughts on what it could be? Would the fact that a track was originally mastered for 33RPM LP be enough to explain this? Or are all singles re-mastered for 45RPM?

I have checked the turntable and both 33.3RPM and 45RPM are the correct speed.

 

Dont have an answer for you but curious what type of music you listen to? I own some jazz - Blue Note Music Matters 45s that I think are tough to beat, but I havnt paid extra to buy the same 33s to do a comparison.

 

not sure. I know I have a few 12 inch albums recorded at 45rpm vs. 33. must be a reason...

 

Generally I enjoy 33rpm records because there's more music on it, but 45s often sound better.^^

 

Have you ever noticed 45 + 33 = 78? 78s, now there's the sound.

But seriously, you don't need to speculate about the advantages of someone who knows what they are doing cutting a record at the faster speed. It's science, and the science has been in for decades.

 

The Voice of Reason.

 

I have not experienced the same phenomena exactly. But If I had to speculate Id think that it might have something to do with the fact of Vinyl being a very interactive medium and 45RPM records requiring more interaction instead of listening.

Like at the end of an LP side you might anticipate the end of the grooves and stand up beforehand. On a single this is more of a constant anticipation or nag in the back of your mind and it wont allow you to listen with as much immersion.

45 RPM nearly always sounds superior over 33 though.

 

I can't think of any 45 rpm 12" single that doesn't sound better in every way than the LP version, at least from the golden age of the 1980s, if the rhythm doesn't sound right perhaps the speed is a little off on 45 rpm, the 45 rpm 12" is the gold standard of vinyl reproduction when done properly.

 

45rpm...too much up and down

I’m waiting for an awesome sounding record changer so I can play 16-24 sides only having to get up for more beer. Then I’d be intrigued by 45 rpm

 

Thanks everyone for responding.

 

The one thing you haven’t mentioned is mastering. I believe that’s what’s causing the bigger sound difference, not the technical side of it. 12” singles are mastered independently from their LP counterparts. Sometimes not even the same team was involved. In many cases even the mixes are also different, but let’s ignore that for a minute.

12” singles played at 45 rpm have less technical restrictions when it comes to mastering. That means they can make them louder, pump up the bass and up the treble without risking a defective cut. That’s why they became so popular in the ‘80s, because they discovered they could get “better” sound out of them, at least DJs in clubs thought it sounded better.

From the 12” singles I’ve heard, this is what they usually did in mastering. Now, goosing up everything doesn’t necessarily make a track sound more musical, so this is maybe what you are experiencing. A song mastered like that for 12” might sound good in a club context when you’re dancing away, but too “jacked up” when listened to in context of its LP counterpart.

It’s the technical limitations of LP that kept producers in check all these years and made records sound more or less great. 45-rpm 12”ers get rid of a fraction of those limitations. Digital (starting with CD) imposed almost no limitations at all, and that is why you have the loudness wars nowadays, because producers could now do whatever they wanted with the sound.

 

Thanks crispi. I know what you mean about some 12" singles sounding like a different mix - I have a few like that, but not many. Most seem broadly similar to the LP version and any differences between them sound like those commonly heard between 33RPM LP and 45RPM single.

I also know what you mean about the 'jacked up' sound and I do prefer this. It's usually more dynamic and punchy and open and what I would generally prefer to listen to - i.e. more lifelike (or what I perceive as lifelike).

There is something else though, something not working so well. The groove and rhythm seem less flowing. Occasionally, even the pitch of an instrument seems a tiny fraction off, by comparison. These factors often cause me to less enjoy the 12" despite the improved sound quality.

Perhaps it's my turntable or I'm just very sensitive to something that doesn't bother other people.

 

12" singles, whether 45 or 33 1/3, can benefit from the shorter track length, allowing higher volume levels to mask surface noise and crackle, and using the outer groove and its higher linear speed for better quality reproduction of the primary track.

The remixed record has been through a different process to get to the vinyl, starting with the actual recording. The remixer might have been provided with a multitrack copy, but more likely individual iso tracks. The remixer might use their own equipment, including samplers and loopers of the day to add their own flair and extend the track, maybe even pulling from their own library of sounds, along with perhaps using their own multitrack recorder or even cut and splice to remake the song. Multiple generations of audio where changes or choices can be introduced.

Then of course, the tape or DAT goes back to the vinyl masterer, who, knowing it is destined for a different market with different sales volumes, creates a new cutting master that is going to be equalized differently than the album track.

The album probably has been compiled and album-mastered by someone who had to match the sound and balance of tracks recorded in different studios by different producers in addition to fitting the sound within the constraints of the denser album LP groove.

A shorter LP length and higher rotational speed can mean improved fidelity, but a different tape means different audio.

 

Well, my point was that it may be exactly this improved sound quality that makes you enjoy the track less. Since you can hear everything clearer and more distinctly, it may cause you to discern slightly out-of-tune instruments (like the one you mention), or rhythm that isn’t perfectly aligned. It’s just a theory, but something worth thinking about. You might not find out right away what it is, but I’m sure you will some day since you seem to have more acute ears than most. And when you do, I hope my theory might have helped, even if only because you recognised it wasn’t what you were looking for.

 

What turntable are you using? When it comes to pitch a small percentage error at 45 is going to be more obvious than at 33, my main deck is spot on and I love the way 12"s sound, I think you may be sensitive to the pitch being off, any chance you can borrow a decent direct drive and directly compare the same 12"s against your deck, it may solve the issue.

 

Different mix or master (more punch added on 45 version)
Mastered louder on 45 (sometimes)
45 RPM has somewhat better fidelity and usually does not veer close to center label as much (usually)
Surface noise and other issues are reproduced at a higher pitch in relation to 33 1/3

Try listening to a 16 RPM album with music sometimes, the change in noise is quite noticeable.

 

Thanks everyone. Food for thought.

 

A good test for you would be Front 242's Never Stop, 1989
Side 1 has V1.1 at 33
Side 2 has it at 45
Promo has First In/First Out at 45
both of these of course are cut at a higher level, both offer perceived better dynamics

 

"LTED (Lateral Tracking Error Distortion), it turns out, is inversely proportional to linear groove speed"
-Keith Howard, "Arc Angles: Optimizing Tonearm Geometry," Stereophile (link below)

So the faster the speed, the lower the distortion, which is why, I believe, the outer grooves of an LP often sound better than the inner grooves—and why 45 rpm may sound better than 33.3 rpm.
-Bob

Read more at Arc Angles: Optimizing Tonearm Geometry Page 2

 

I know with dance 12"ers the 45rpm ones always have more impact.

 

That's the point of 12 inch singles. The cutting of LPs and 7 inch singles is a compromise between loudness and playing time. With 12 inch singles there is enough space for comparably little playing time, that it can be cut at the maximal loudness level the recording process allows. This gives better SNR. The higher playback speed and the fact that most of the music will be further out on the record also help increase fidelity.

There aren't many of those, the vast majority of 12 inch singles are 45.

Mastering is independent of the record's speed. 12 inch singles are simply cut louder.

 

The only draw back with 45s is the reduced playing time. SQ wise they are rather superior to 33s.

 

It 'flippin' sucks

 

My understanding is that 78RPM (a suggested speed in the days of manually cranked record players) was necessary for adequate sound quality (70RPM was the minimum). Later developments allowed better sound quality at a slower rotational speed.

Now a question: Using modern techniques and materials, how good would a 78RPM record sound? It seems it would blow both the LP and 45RPM record away.

 

You bet--but cylinders are even better. Most of them turn at 160 RPM.