"8 or 9 grams is the normal pressure"

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Maggie, Jul 12, 2018.

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  1. H8SLKC

    H8SLKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I've been tracking heavy with the Shure sc35cs for many weeks now, listening to multiple albums multiple times at 4.5g. The records are in fantastic shape and I no longer subscribe to the light-tracking orthodoxy, and also appreciate the contributions of all forum members, but in this instance particularly appreciate vwestlife and Maggie for theirs.
     
  2. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    3 grams for the last 33 years here no problemo !!!:D
     
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  3. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Senior Member

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    I am very fortunate to have many of the LPs that my Dad bought in the 1950s and 60s to listen to and I hear no more noise in playback today than in many of the LPs I bought in the late 60s/70s using a cart that tracked at far less weight.

    I was also very very fortunate to find a slew of new LPs from the 1950s including Sinatra on Columbia, Nat King Cole, Ella Fitzgerald and others I cannot recall. The only issue was that the plastic records were then wrapped in by many labels did add some discoloration to the records and in some cases, noise. Bought them at Breakdown Records in about 2003 and paid $2 per :) Back before 'vinyls' became the 'IT' thing to own.
     
  4. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    The Shure SC 35C is a very nice cartridge. It also has very good compliance. And tracks most records well save for a few extremely tough cuts that are not trackable on most equipment. It's not abusive to records if records are clean, and styli kept clean and replaced when worn.
     
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  5. Jeffreylee

    Jeffreylee Rock 'n' Roll Typist

    Location:
    Louisville
    If I’m wrong I apologize but I’ve read several posts of his that defend grinders, and his YouTube channel seems to feature video expressing the same. Maybe I just have selective reading disorder.
     
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  6. Bigbudukks

    Bigbudukks Older, but no wiser.

    Location:
    Gaithersburg, MD
    If that's The Art Pepper Quartet at least the music is good, if not the advice. :D
     
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  7. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    On my Dual 1019 I'm currently running a Shure M7D cart with a N3D stylus, tracking about 4.1g. The soundstage is wide, the quality rich and smooth. Modern and older records alike sound great, and I can guarantee there is no issues at all with vinyl being hurt or mistracking. I could easily run this up to 5 or 6 grams if necessary without issue. A great early stereo cartridge where Jico styli for heavier(3-5g) and light(1.5-2.5) are easily available and as good as the originals.
     
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  8. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Great cart.
     
  9. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    That is indeed the record and you're right, it's sweet! :thumbsup:
     
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  10. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    @vwestlife has said, over and over again, quite literally, "Don't buy Crosley," in those exact terms, pointing to their crappy build quality, terrible ceramic cartridges, awful sound, etc., etc., etc.

    But at the same time, it's disingenuous to call devices like these, operating at 6g of tracking force, "grinders" when LPs have always been designed to withstand extended use at tracking forces many times higher than the current standard. And indeed, the original designers of the stereo LP meant it to be tracked in the 5-6g range.

    That doesn't mean that today's lighter cartidges aren't superior, but 5-6g is quite harmless and always has been. Again, 6g may be thrice 2g, but actually the difference is minute and 6g of force isn't doing three times the damage. Probably 9/10ths of all the sought-after used records out there have been played at as much as 10g of VTF at least a few times.
     
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  11. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    Crosley's are not grinders because they operate at heavier then audiophile tracking weights. They suck because they are cheap crap that are designed poorly and sold to people that don't know any better. The heavier tracking forces are not responsible for ruining records. The lousy arms and cartridges and alignments are.
     
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  12. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    But do upgrade the stylus to a N3D if doable, or better yet, N7/N21D. The latter is especially nice, and tracks at 2.5 grams well.
     
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  13. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    I have a N3D in the one on the 1019(see post above) and a Jico N21 in another M7 that I use with my AR XA.
     
  14. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Excellent. And practical. I use the Jico N44-7 presently on my Shure M232/Shure M 55 setup as my main daily use turntable and arm. I have a 3 mil 78 RPM stylus on order for it, should be here next Wednesday for 78 playback when desired.
     
  15. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    I have the same Jico as a spare (although my current stylus has many hours left in it) but for the intended M44C cart, which ranges from 3-5grs. The suspension is stiffer so no sure about using it with the M55, even when it's a perfect fit. Any compliance issues so far ?
     
  16. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    You can absolutely use it with the M55 cart. All of the 44 variations were made to be used with the M55, as well as the M44 cartridge.
     
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  17. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    I use the -7. The -C is OK but stiffer suspension. And tracks at heavier forces.
     
  18. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL


    Sorry; I misread. That one is totally compatible.
     
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  19. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    I was wondering about what people have been saying about original spec tracking forces -- the 5~6 grams recommended in the late 1950s. I don't know how many people here (on this thread specifically) actually collect and own LPs manufactured in that era, but the vinyl I have on records manufactured in that era is definitely heavier and seems more robust than what would be typical on US press records just a few years later. UK presses remained heavier for many more years than that.

    What I wonder is if that entered into the determination of the original spec -- not knowing if that would be a factor to consider or not.
     
  20. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    I own a lot of 1950's mono LP discs.
     
  21. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    The earliest spec of 6 grams (1948) from Columbia was only because it was a major achievement at that time, and specifically designed for the LP system, for a cartridge to track as light as 6 grams. Then the original LP vinyl was formulated to be reasonably durable and reasonably quiet for multiple plays at 6 grams. They could have made less, or more, durable vinyl, the vinyl becoming more noisy the more durable it was. Columbia chose the original mix of the vinyl as part of its LP system.
    Still, earliest LPs from major labels from 1948 to about 1950-1951 sound like sandpaper to our ears. I think around 1952 the major labels got quieter vinyl. I think that quieter type vinyl starting c.1952 got tiny incremental improvements until 1969 or so with RCA Dynaflex and the Columbia response to that - thinner, lighter, even quieter vinyl that was about the same or better durability. (Original Dynaflex was so thin it had a different problem of rumble and resonance, and flopping over the edges, drooping down, from the smaller turntable platters of cheaper players.)
    Tiny labels could use much worse vinyl or less durable styrene during all of that era. There were different grades/quality of "shellac" also, during the 78 era.
     
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  22. 5-String

    5-String μηδὲν ἄγαν

    Location:
    Sunshine State
    You guys need to read this.
    This is copied pasted from vinylengine.com (How much weight is enough to damage vinyl? - Vinyl Engine )


     
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  23. 5-String

    5-String μηδὲν ἄγαν

    Location:
    Sunshine State
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    These are the facts about tracking force and record wear.
     
  24. vwestlife

    vwestlife Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
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  25. Trashman

    Trashman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    A shibata stylus is designed to more closely approximate the cutting head on a record lathe. It has more of a knife edge to track the groove. But the downside is that too much pressure with that stylus design will damage records much more quickly, especially if you go outside the manufacturer's recommended tracking force... as the needle essentially is re-cutting the groove when too much tracking force is applied. Other factors can be involved too... such as miss-alignment of the cartridge can damage a groove more easily when using fine-line stylus shapes. Also, some of the fine line stylus types can destroy styrene 45s even when played within specs. The knife edge of the needle doesn't mix well with the brittle plastic used in a styrene pressing.

    The main problem with needles from the 50s and 60s wasn't the tracking force. It was that many of them were made with sapphire tips, not diamond tips. Sapphire tips wear out after about 50-100 hours (compared to diamond tips which can last 10x longer). That isn't very long in the grand scheme of things. They will continue to play records after they are worn out, but they will begin to damage the groove once they are worn out. Did people back then changes their needles as often as they should? Most often not. Many of the lower-fi systems weren't good about revealing groove damage, so people just kept plowing ahead with their worn-out needles until they started to skip. And even then, some people would just tape a few coins on top of the tone arm to keep the needle in the groove. :yikes:
     
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