"8 or 9 grams is the normal pressure"

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Maggie, Jul 12, 2018.

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  1. Bigbudukks

    Bigbudukks Older, but no wiser.

    Location:
    Gaithersburg, MD
    It was great to read stuff from B50. We haven't heard from him in some time now. We heard from him a couple of times after the hurricane, but just sporadically. I hope he's alright. His area got hit pretty hard. I hope he still isn't without electricity. I know some areas still don't have it and no one seems to be all that worried about it in D.C..
     
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  2. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    To remind you people, a few more grams to the VTF isnt the worst, especially if the cartridge was designed for it.
    Whats worse than too much VTF is too little. And I suspect that badly installed and maintained players is the main cause for worn old records.

    But of course, less pressure means less wear, so it would be idiotic to set a modern 2 gram specified cart at more than so.
     
  3. bob_32_116

    bob_32_116 Forum Flaneur

    Location:
    Perth Australia
    (Monty Python)
     
  4. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL


    Death by Shibata:p
     
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  5. inperson

    inperson Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    Me too. I just got mine 2 weeks ago. It's not bad. Is yours made in Mexico or is it a vintage made in the USA version?
     
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  6. H8SLKC

    H8SLKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    It's the new model made in Mexico. Love it in the paradox pulse body, hits all of the "wants" in a cartridge for me at this time.

     
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  7. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Facts: I am tracking my own Jico N 44-7 (in Shure M 55E body) at 3 grams in my Shure M 232 tonearm. Tracking reliably all day long. I use this setup with my QRK/McMartin TT 12-C broadcast setup. Nicknamed B.L.A.T. (Built Like A Tank) but also refined. Gentle on record wear too. Reliable in high hours daily use. I believe in using medium to high end of the tracking force range for best tracking, and least record wear. Over 45 years of broadcast engineering experience has proven this approach as sensible, and practical in daily vinyl playback.
     
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  8. Before the microgroove era, tracking weight was measured in ounces, so, 8-9 grams is nothing unusual or even surprising. When magnetic cartridges for microgroove records became more common, tracking weight continued to drop and with the advent of stereo, even more. By the late-60's, Zenith was advertising it's phonographs with the 2 g tone arm. Now that was revolutionary.
    Commercially speaking, we shot for 3-5 grams. You didn't want to take a chance on a record skipping or bouncing off the record. I never experienced an excessive wear problem and have vinyl(definitely not with poly-styrene) records which were used in Top 40 rotation 30+ years ago which still play and sound great.
    Those most common reason that any record is considerably worn is because of a worn or damaged stylus. Maybe some don't go back that far, but I remember the days when you had a worn stylus, so instead of replacing it, you just taped a nickel or quarter to the tone arm . That is why you see badly worn older records.
     
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  9. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Zenith's approach was far more sensible for Stereo. Reduced record wear, the lower output ceramic used by Micro-Touch also was very compliant, and tracked very well. On par with a Shure M 44-7. The quarter wasn't the only problem with badly worn older records, so was the excessive tracking force and people who didn't change worn out styli. Or bother to get their players serviced when there was issues.
     
  10. vwestlife

    vwestlife Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    From a 1953 advertisement:

    [​IMG]

    ⅓ oz. = 9.4 grams
     
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  11. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Commercially speaking, we also used superior quality tone arms (manual and professional grade) and magnetic cartridges and they were maintained by engineers, and styli replaced as necessary. And high end professional broadcast turntables maintained on schedule. Big difference compared to the average console or portable phono owner who rarely ever replaced a stylus, never bothered to do preventative maintenance on their phonos. They got repaired when something failed. Facts: A Gates CB 77 in 1965 was $300 new, a Gray 108 another $100 new, and the Stanton 500 A another $25 or the Shure M 44-7 at $25. That combo cost more than most people's whole HiFi console or tabletop phono. Consider that a Fisher bottom of the line consolette radio-phonograph was around $600 new.
     
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  12. There wasn't much to maintaining the old radio station turntables. A few drops of oil in the motors, pull the turntable and put a drop of oil down the shaft well, make sure the idler was soft & clean and a drop of oil on the idler shaft. The professional turntables were built to be serviced and if it took more than 5 minutes, you obviously didn't know what you were doing. The stylus should have been changed often and should have been a conical type. Problem is, many radio stations didn't change their stylus enough or use the correct stylus and the records in high rotation got cue-burned. With styrene records, cue-burning could happen very quickly but vinyl records were more forgiving.
    The commercial turntables were a little late in the game for having light tracking tone arms. The Gray tone arms were more like "ton" arms. With 2 major radio station turntable manufacturers locally, they got into the modern lightweight tone arms in the 70's. My QRK turntable has a tubular aluminum "S" style tone arm using a universal interchangeable head shell. It had a Stanton 681 cartridge in it when I got it. The main cartridge I use for it now is the Pickering NP/AC(Stanton 400). I'd seen a lot of turntables in radio stations get rid of the old clunky "ton" arms and upgraded to tubular aluminum "S"style lightweight tone arms.
    The radio station traditional turntables were still behind the times, many still using idler drives, and I can see why Technics took over the radio station market quite quickly. Lower price, they came with superior tone arms already mounted and were a lot smoother running. With FM stereo stations on the rise, they were better off getting turntables which had way less of that NAB-acceptable rumble. But, also in the 70's many of the larger radio stations started playing their music from carts or pre-programed r2r tapes and all the DJ had to do was start, announce and play or read the commercials. Turntables were pretty much a dying breed.
     
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  13. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    All very good points. And all highly agreed on. I am also using a QRK 12-C of my own (post 1984 model McMartin TT 12-C, built by BE in Quincy, Illinois and has the last logo. Low hours production room queen) . Mine is used with a Shure M 232 tonearm. Technics SP series turntables usually in broadcasting were used with existing arms, or got Audio-Technica ATP series tonearms or SME 3009 II or 3012 arms. The SL-1100 and SL-1200 tonearms were integrated and excellent. In the broadcast plants I maintained, turntables were serviced on schedule, styli also on schedule, and we did use conicals (usually Stanton 500A)
     
  14. I've got plenty of ex-radio station 45's which were obviously played with worn or the wrong style of stylus. My QRK was made in Fresno, California and has a QRK-branded tone arm. Obviously they didn't make it, but it is a tubular "S" type and will accept most modern headshells.
     
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  15. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Your arm is a nice arm. And uncommon. Only seen one in all my years in and around broadcast engineering. I liked that arm very well (and if the station I cared for then had the budget that year, I would have installed them).
     
  16. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    Well, it is fun to experiment with old cartridges and old cartridge designs. I'm someone who believes as was stated above that 8 or 9 grams won't hurt your records so long as everything else is in order. Of course, it's an academic argument for me as I'm never going to crank a cartridge up to 8 or 9g VTF.

    I do experiment with ceramic cartridges and the surprising thing is that given the general descriptions that they were horrible, awful groove chewers and delivered only mediocre sound at best (so what were our grandparents, who had the same ear/brain anatomy that we do today, actually listening to?), I find that some of them actually sound pretty darned good to incredible. For one thing, immediacy and speed are things you will not really notice until you try a ceramic cartridge. They absolutely crush magnetic cartridges when it comes to speed. This mean much more realistic transients. It becomes difficult in some cases to go back to magnetic cartridges once you hear how sharp, metallic and instantaneous cymbal strike is on a ceramic cartridge. You don't realize until that moment that what you've come to accept unconsciously as the sound of the opening transient cymbal strike on your magnetic cartridge sounds soft, slow and almost under water, which I think has to do with the inability of a magnetic cartridge to focus like that.

    Micro-Acoustics cartridges are a form of ceramic cartridge with a design that miniaturizes, modifies, and modernizes the ceramic cartridge to something more refined, capable of light audiophile-approved tracking forces, and able to be directly routed to a magnetic phono input.

    On days when I remove my Sugano era Koetsu Onyx Gold (freshly retipped!) just for fun ...

    [​IMG]

    ... don't be surprised if you see this on the end of my arm. And if you weren't looking and only using your ears, you might not know that I changed my cartridge.

    [​IMG]

    Pfanstiehl 132D tracking at 4g.

    You really only need the 4g to keep the direct-coupled cartridge in the record groove when walking by the turntable since I have bouncy wood floors. I tracks great at just 2 grams.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
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  17. Time Is On My Side

    Time Is On My Side Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, WI
    I have my LP-1240 USB at just over 1.5 grams.
     
  18. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Sorry, it is not going to last no 3000 plays, and sound great. Not on a revealing, quality system. 1 in maybe 35 buyers of that ever even bothered to have their stylus checked, replaced when beginnings of wear set in, and have their changer maintained on time. Ever gone hunting for vintage early Stereo RCA Living Stereo Classical or Pop? Most examples are trashed.

    Most RCA console owners attended to their console if it broke or failed. I can believe 1000-2000 plays with high frequencies intact if this were a Dual 1009 or 1019, and a Shure M 44-7 was used, and the stylus microscope checked yearly, the stylus replaced on time and the changer cared for and maintained.

    Or the same out of a period ELAC Miracord or Garrard of comparable grade. I'd believe 2000 plays same out of an ARXA with same, or an Empire Troubadour. The separate component turntable owner, most of the time, had far higher odds of taking care of his equipment and record library. This is borne out by my experience repairing and maintaining HiFi and phonos over many years.

    If you used a compact or console of RCA average grade then, those styli needed at least yearly replacement and if used several hours a day, twice or even thrice a year was necessary. The heavier tracking forces also wore ceramic styli down more often too. And the higher output used on those ceramics also reduced the compliance, which also increased wear of records and styli. The best ceramic system available for the lay consumer, was far and away the Zenith/CBS Laboratories Micro-Touch, or the VM similar changers with the Tetrad tracking at 2 grams, with a lower output ceramic cartridge. High compliance for it's class, very low record wear if styli kept good and changer in good working order and adjusted right. Steve Hoffman and I both can attest to what it did to save the records of our youth. Simple Phono Basics 101, Mistrack your records once, the damage is done. Finito, Finished. Avoid mistracking your records or playing them with unsuitable equipment, or keep replacing the records.

    My records are more valuable than the 3 systems which play them. I also prefer not to have to go through the challenges of hunting down replacements in top condition. I expended a lot of money, a lot of trips hunting, and herculean physical energy I only have so much of to find those records.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  19. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England

    All good advice. I wouldn't advocate that anyone actually use a ceramic full time, and I do all the things mentioned here. My equipment is in top order and inspect my tips frequently with a microscope. I know I haven't damaged my records, but I still am often how much it really does take to damage a record groove. Neglect will do it, but when you actually see a diamond that is bad enough to destroy a record, it's pretty amazing that someone could let a diamond go that long. And I know I have at least one record that's been damaged, but of course since I got it second hand, I don't know how. It actually squeaks and the highs are all gone and there's a rushing sound in the left channel. I'm guessing either a cracked diamond or sapphire tip, heck, maybe even osmiroid tip, alone or in conjunction with a tonearm that continually received ever-increasing VTF adjustments.
     
  20. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    I'd recommend installing a Shure M 44-7 in this Dual. Much better match for the tonearm. And you have much more stylus options for it, including 78 RPM options if you like that.
     
  21. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    I'm no longer using the 1019, but the stylus tracking at 4g was fine. Eventually moved to a N21D and tracked at about 2g and that was good too. Use that with my Empire 98 tonearm now on my Fairchild 412.

    I like the 44-7, but prefer other, lower gain styli for my tables.

    There are easily available after market 78 stylus' for the M7 as well.

    I did use a M44/55 on my Elac 50HII(also used for 78's), but have since moved to a Shure M91ED with a N91-3 for 78's.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2020
  22. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    There are plenty of nice old records which are undamaged by old styli tracking at those kinds of weights. The damage does not come primarily from the friction of the stylus tacking the groove. The damage comes from deformation of the groove in excess of its elastic limits, so that the vinyl tears. When a stylus tracks the groove, even at the lower forces used these days, the groove is deformed elastically, and then snaps back to its original position. If the force that is elastically stretching the groove is too high, the vinyl tears. Of course, if the stylus is worn, it can do damage at much lower tracking force levels.

    Even knowing this, I do hesitate to use cartridges that specify 4 or 5 grams, such as the Ortofon SPU cartridges. I just feel more comfortable with something that tracks optimally at under 2 grams.
     
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