A Comprehensive Analysis Of The Rolling Stones Post 1970 Virgin Cds VS SHM Japan Cds

If there was no difference in tonality, i.e., EQ, between two CDs, then the orange line would be flat across. There is a rise down low. That means the low frequencies were boosted. And there is the rise I pointed out up high. Smiley faced. Yes, we can argue about the degree of the smiley faced EQ'ed'ness. But both the lows and highs were boosted.

... I have only ever had the CBS CD, but the SHM had been on my to-buy list. No longer, for curiousity's sake, I now have a Virgin CD and the SHM on the way.

See Dave's post up above. His comments match some cut and pasted comments I also have on the Virgin. I don't know if these are separate comments from separate people, or from one person, but this is what I have:

 

What do you mean original SACDs? Are you talking about the ABKCO hybrids? Because the post 70 catalog was not on London, and we are talking about post 1970 here. We also have Steve commenting on the Sticky Fingers SACD thread that it matches what is on the master tape.

 

I appreciate your charts, and having viewed them over a few different albums now I think I am beginning to lock into their meaning pretty well. The one thing I noticed from those experiences is that the scale of the chart to me might be such that what looks to the eye like a big EQ shift may be less perceptible to the ear than the slope of the chart shows.

Now my only experience with this stuff is using a Technics 12 band graphic equalizer to try and make crappy Dead tapes sound more bearable, so I would ask if you or someone else could possibly talk a little about the two y axis. The left one seems to be dB from 0 to 12 +/- dB; and while I know from my amp what 3dB sounds like as a volume shift, is that a large EQ shift on the whole per your software? Also does the right y axis, -18 to -72 tell us anything? I am not looking for an in depth Wikipedia explanation [I have already spent 10 minutes there, including this thread here where I stopped when SH said “Kids, don’t try this at home”] just a quick word of what a big shift in that software might look like. In short I think I am saying your software looks pretty high-end capable of showing minute details. If this is too basic a question, or you don’t want to wade there, I completely understand so don’t bother if you don’t want.

Whatever you decide about responding I hope you don’t get deterred from providing the charts; to me they add to the conversation, and if someone gets pissed off about how someone else uses them then that sounds like a problem that is not yours.

Anyway, by process of judo I am going to take this lurching thread further off topic and say I plan on spending some extra time listening to Pretzel Logic with its charts in mind trying to ascertain better what may or may not be going on with its mid-range EQ, and well, I will just leave it at that. Thanks again.

PS I have the Virgins, but from asking others on some shm-sacd heavy threads, I have been convinced to try the shm-sacds so the pre-order begins.

 

What a deliciously toothsome line. Without even opining on the opinion, for a second there I thought I was reading The New Yorker! Cheers.

 

I did mention the 2002 release and realized I was speaking about the earlier ABKCO SACDs, but the results weren't that much worse than with the SHM SACDs of It's Only Rock 'N Roll and Tattoo You. They got bright sounding and sound kind of squeezed at louder volumes and the CBS CDs easily bettered them sounding more relaxed for me. I am very curious about the SHM SACD Undercover though because the original CD isn't that great.

 

The DSD Undercover sounds grrreat

 

How was that a "comprehensive analysis"? You could have just said that in one of the several existing threads.

 

Good question and if only I'd explained it clearly in the first place, you wouldn't have to ask.

It's really simple. Basically, all the frequencies to the left of (roughly) the half-way mark are boosted to a greater or lesser extent, and all the frequencies to the right of (roughly) the half-way mark are rolled off to a greater or lesser extent. If we look at where you've drawn your red line, what we're seeing is the way the frequencies are much more rolled off at 2kHz to 3kHz than they are at 12kHz to 13kHz, where they're almost back to the same level as the flat transfer. But the important point is that, wherever you look, there's not a single frequency north of 1kHz that's actually boosted, relative to the flat master - they're all rolled off.

Hope that's a bit clearer.

 

No, it's not clear at all. My red line increases as it goes to the right. My red line indicates the right half side of a "smile." Those frequencies have been boosted. If those frequencies weren't boosted, my red line would decrease as the frequencies increase. IOW, my red would continue an imaginary line from the upper left of the plot to the lower right. That's not what happens.

I think you need to forget about looking at the absolute frequency graphs, and just look at the difference that you plotted as the orange line.

The comment that I posted that the Virgin CD is brighter than the CBS appears to confirm this.

??

 

Doh, I'm not doing very well at this, am I?! I tell you what, maybe it would help to look at the numbers running up the left-hand side of the chart. Those are decibels. The centre line is zero, the numbers above the zero are plus and the numbers below the zero are minus. So try looking at it this way. Any time the orange line is in plus territory, that means the Virgin has MORE of that frequency than the flat transfer. Any time it's in negative territory, that means it has LESS of that frequency than the flat transfer.

You can now see that the Virgin always has less treble than the flat transfer. The amount of "lessness" may vary, and indeed it does, but it's always less. If at any point the Virgin were boosted relative to the flat transfer, the treble would have to enter positive territory, and it never does.

It's interesting what you say about the CBS - it's the one version I've never heard. If you say it's less bright than the Virgin, I believe you! I hope to hear it one day.

 

I think you guys are talking about two different things. In absolute terms, back2vinyl's chart shows that the high frequencies have been rolled off relative to the flat transfer. However, because the mids have been lowered even more, the net effect is a relative boost to the higher frequencies. Certainly, all the Virgins sound like the higher frequencies have been boosted relative to the CBS cds (and that is not a compliment )

 

Which is highly amusing, since the CBS Exile is one of the worst sounding disks I have ever owned.

 

I didn't say the CBS Exile was a good sounding cd. I don't like it either Same goes for Sticky Fingers. Pick your poison on those two (or hopefully the SHMs are an improvement--I've never heard them.)

 

I think this is more or less the same as what I was trying to say (quote below), yes?

 

Hi bmoregnr - I'll take your advice and keep it short, not least because it's off topic! It's the scale on the left you need to look at, which shows the difference in decibels between whatever it is you're analysing. I'd hate to generalise about how big or small a decibel difference needs to be if it's to be significant - it depends on the frequency, the type of sound, the duration, so many things. Having said that I'd expect anything much below 1dB to be increasingly hard to detect on a casual listen - the difference in Pretzel Logic isn't glaringly obvious by any means, or not to my ears anyway - while 3dB would usually be very noticeable. Most of the mastering differences I see go up to around 3dB and it's fairly unusual to see differences much bigger than that, if that's any guide.

I enjoy comparing different masterings and often find the charts a useful aid. I don't like analysing music too much by ear - to me, it takes away the magic, listening to the same piece of music over and over again listening out for small differences - so I tend to let the software do the donkey work and use my ears as the final arbiter.

I'd better shut up now but I hope we can continue one day on a more topical thread!

 

I just liked the title and i knew the inevitable consequence however, I was more or less inviting a "Comprehensive Analysis," My bad.

 

First off, that speed corrected version of "Fingerprint File" back on page 2 absolutely rules! Holy crap - the menace is just seeping through... they screwed the pooch by speeding it up.

So for someone who has a very basic/moderately adequate system (with SACD capability on his DVD player - lol) and the CBS and Virgins of the whole catalog, should I start getting the SACDs with Exile and IORR? Do any of the others have a more remarkable difference in sound? If the price is going down next month, I might have to take the plunge.

For what it's worth, I've preferred the Virgins over the CBS on a case-by-case basis, but I truly feel I never heard Exile until I got a moderately early U.S. pressing a few months ago. The depth and soundstage on that are absolutely remarkable - unlike anything I've ever heard before.

 

Get the SACD. Or, if you prefer, the Blu-ray Audio (I think it's the same mastering).

 

I just pulled the trigger on The Platinum Goats Head Soup and the SHM regular, Its Only Rock And Roll.

 

This is it. The comparison is not to an absolute. It's a relative difference between the two discs.

 

I agree! Who wants to plow through old threads anyway. I am sure there are plenty in the forum who would like to discuss the issue. If not, you wouldn't get any reply's would you?

 

Right, but I am an amature at this and it shows. I wish someone with the technology and knowledge would graphically analyze Goats Head Soup, Silver Train, and Winter would be good comparisons.

 

Btw. I love Goats Head Soup. Love all of its primitive effects and studio tricks of the day when everything was still developing and just recorded straight to multitrack tape. Can't wait to hear the Platinum. Until then The Virgin Collectors Edition will have to do. The Virgin Disc has some badd ass packaging though.