A Little Lube'll Do Ya? - Vintage record player issue!

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Nathan Aaron, Feb 10, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. quadjoe

    quadjoe Senior Member

    It would indeed, and I sincerely hope that's how it's made. That would be logical, since these record players were built in an age when people actually had their equipment repaired.

    I actually found an Electro-Voice replacement for it on a website (TurntableNeedles.com), though it looks to be permanently out-of stock. The Astatic 763d is, according to another website the correct match, but there is a waiting list for that one. BTW, the Astatic and the E-V look the same. Click on this link to see an exploded view of the tonearm and cartridge assembly: http://www.phonoland.com/viewtopic.php?t=4195

    The cartridge is suspended in the end of the tonearm on a pivoting mechanism that allows the cartridge to "float" in the headshell. VTF is supplied by a balance spring in the tonearm itself and in combination with the weight at the front. This arrangement allowed the cartridge to ride more easily over warps and provided some damping. I remember that Sears claimed that the floating cartridge wouldn't scratch your records (not true, but it did help reduce the likelihood somewhat.) In this particular model of record player, I believe that the tracking was somewhere in between 5-8 grams (my guess is that it's probably about 6.5, though I've never measured it.) It's kinda neat to watch it playing a warped record as the cartridge and its weight move up and down much more than the tonearm does, however, the tonearm can be made to bottom out on the record if you get careless. Zenith had a similar system in their 2g Micro-Touch tonearm, but it was vastly superior, IMO.

    Doug.[/QUOTE]
     
  2. Analogman

    Analogman Well-Known Member

    Yeah, that would be a problem, wouldn't it?
    He hasn't, or won't, confirm that beyond "it's the motor drive shaft that stops moving after a while"
    With the pulley still in place (as far as we know)
    Not exactly a hard confirmation

    And that's exactly right, put a little effort into it
     
  3. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Man, what's with the change in tone here? It's starting to sound like a miniature Frankenstein mob hunt! ;) A) I don't usually check this forum on the weekends (no internet at home. That's what work is for, right?! ;) I only check on my phone during the weekend on occasion. B) You're talking to a total novice here. I'm not a mechanically inclined guy, so EVERYTHING about this is new to me. Capstan, plinth, steeped pulley assembly, I have no clue what these things are. :) But I'm learning, that's why I'm asking questions on here. (And hey, I now know what a capstan is!) So have some patience, and I sincerely appreciate everyone's help. I would love to learn how to fix record players (and know what I'm dealing with/looking at, etc..) I'm trying. I'm just slow going.

    I'm guessing the plinth is the entire metal portion that the record plays on top of, etc. The piece I'm trying to get out of the case? If that is correct, there are no screws. Let me do a little more research tonight and see if there are any other areas screws might be present on the case, etc. that I haven't noticed. And I've done quite a bit of research on the internet concerning this model, etc. But for something this old, you'd be surprised how hard it is to find anything useful. (Or at least in the manner I've gone about it up to this point. Just searching off of Google, etc.)

    The model # is actually listed and shown on the previous forum link I posted here in this forum (for the needle issue I was having.) But I didn't specifically state that, so I'm sorry. Here's the photo (model #4272):

    [​IMG]

    I mean, how else do you bone up on turntable/changer construction, if not from a manual or asking more knowledgeable experts (such as all you great guys!) I'm trying here, I'm trying.

    More shortly as I do some more prodding and poking. Thanks.
     
  4. quadjoe

    quadjoe Senior Member

    Nathan: I just found a reference for a guy who sells Sam's Photofact manuals and he might just have the one you need. The item number is 577 - 11 and the website is http://www.stevenjohnson.com/photofacts/index-s.htm You'll need to contact him for the availability and cost. I hope this helps.
     
    Nathan Aaron likes this.
  5. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thanks, quadjoe!
     
  6. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Update (well, kinda) : Not sure if anyone here is interested in seeing these photos, but I'll post them here just in case. So last night I attempted to get into the record player (and under the plinth, which I've learned is actually the plywood portion of the record player the turntable sits on. If I'm wrong, please correct me) via the dial area at the front of the record player (which is one of the few places with screws!) So I carefully got it all apart, and no go. Impossible to get your hand under the plinth, and the mass of tubes controlling the dials make it even more difficult (and I didn't want to really get near those, and mess anything up.)

    I jiggled, shook, pulled, and pushed those two little "latches" on the sides, to no avail. I'm almost to the point of thinking there's some mystery trick here that when I figure it out I'll smack myself upside my head. Not pestering for more direction at this point, just sharing what I'm learning as I go along.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  7. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    [​IMG]

    Showing how the plinth is attached permanently to the portable shell. (on the right.) The screw you see below it is actually simply holding a piece of the base in place, which balances the entire record player when it's sitting.
     
  8. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    [​IMG]

    I thought this would be useful to take a photo of, in case I need to know these details one day!
     
  9. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    [​IMG]

    Command control central! (Or one of...)
     
  10. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    [​IMG]

    One of the "latches" with the plastic portion off. It actually came off during one of my tugging moments. I've tried pushing it DOWN, also, but it won't budge in that direction.
     
  11. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    [​IMG]

    It does pull UP, but as you can see, the shape of the piece to the slot it fills doesn't really change (in order to make it slid over, out, under, anything.) So, still a work in progress from this point. These two latches HAVE to be the key. So that's where I'm focusing all my attention now. There are no more screws to remove at this point. :)
     
  12. Analogman

    Analogman Well-Known Member

    Good effort, this is progress
    How much of a gap between the plinth and the bottom of your cabinet?
    If you pull the screws holding the amp section to the board, and lay the little amp aside can you get your hand underneath then?
     
  13. Ghostworld

    Ghostworld Senior Member

    Location:
    US
    Ah, now you're having some fun! Take that thing down! :p
     
    Nathan Aaron likes this.
  14. erniebert

    erniebert Shoe-string audiophile

    Location:
    Toronto area
    WD-40 is a solvent, not a lubricant!

    This stuff, on the other hand, is an amazing lubricant:

    [​IMG]

    You have to spray very little, so one can will last a long, long time. I got a new can 5 years ago and have used it lots of times and it's still half full.

    http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/561
     
    Nathan Aaron likes this.
  15. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    - There's no way. It can't be the way in (even though I was trying!) Because even if you could get your hand under the plinth (and it's too slim) to reach the latch on the right side, which is closest to the front of the player, the latch on the left side is in a completely different area, towards the back. (You can see what I mean in the photo.) So that's why I think those latches are the key!

    I haven't had a chance to get any further this week! Planning a 50th birthday party for Saturday, all the decorations, reservations, and the cake! are on me! (And no, I didn't just start this week. Ha!) So I'll jump back into the player next week! :)

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    - So I downloaded this "manual", which I swear I double-checked as being the one I needed, like a zillion times, but when I viewed it, it was for models 2050, 2050A, 2051, 2051A, and 2264. So I kinda felt slighted by the seller. I think I'll contact him and see if his link is messed up.
     
  17. quadjoe

    quadjoe Senior Member

    Oh, that really sucks. Hopefully, the seller will be able to help you out or at least refund your money.
     
    Nathan Aaron likes this.
  18. Analogman

    Analogman Well-Known Member

    Look at it closely; with equipment like that, it could have (and probably was) sold under 15 or 20 model numbers............it may be the correct one

    Have you verified absolutely that it is the MOTOR that stops turning and not the capstan? As previously discussed?

    Also, have you (in all the "jiggling and pulling") tried "unscrewing" the table from the plinth?
    Try it for the heck of it (rotating it)

    This is very frustrating, I wish I was there; it cannot be this difficult, or convoluted

    I had a nearly identical Magnavox portable, received as a child, which I disassembled as a teen, I have pulled at least a dozen changers like this out of consoles and the like, it just can't be this hard..........but I need to lay hands on it to feel what's holding it in........it is the closest thing there is to a near universal installation of a piece of hardware............TWO screws and or TWO clips

    Sorry I can't offer you more
     
  19. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    We will figure it out! Don't get frustrated! :) There's not really a lot of working room to unscrew/rotate the table from the plinth (as you can see in the photo above.) But I'll see what I can do. Also, this is all I know. This (circled in photo below) STOPS spinning after a while. You can feel it spinning, if it's touching the idler wheel, that is spinning (and all of this is without the platter on, obviously.) But if you walk away and just let it do it's thing, after five or so minutes, go back, the item circled (for once and for all, I'll get this, is the circled item the capstan OR the motor shaft? Or are they one and the same?) has STOPPED spinning. Touch it, nothing. Give the silver part a little twist/nudge, off it goes again. USUALLY. On occasion it just won't do a thing. And trust me, if you think you're frustrated because it "can't be this difficult" imagine how I feel. I'm not completely stupid (most people will agree with that ;) ) But there is just something I'm missing here! I'll find it! More next week.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Doug G.

    Doug G. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, MN USA
    Nathan, if I came across as kind of harsh in my last post, I didn't mean to. I was just trying to say I believe a person should learn as much as possible about the particular turntable one is trying to repair so you know all the intricacies of that model.

    I know it's difficult to find info on a lot of those old changers used in consoles as there were so many of them but perserverance usually pays off.

    Doug
     
    Nathan Aaron likes this.
  21. Analogman

    Analogman Well-Known Member

    The circled part attaches to the motor's shaft
    You have yet to report determining if it is tight on the shaft, and, if the motor is dead when it (again, the circled part) stops turning (it's slipping)

    That would be one explanation for the intermittent nature of the failure

    Diagnostics requires a logical process to be fruitful (and save wasted, unnecessary energies/efforts)

    I would not be wholly concerned (consumed) with removing the table until I knew what I was looking for; that's been my point the whole conversation

    I'm not frustrated; good luck to you with your project
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
    Nathan Aaron likes this.
  22. Ghostworld

    Ghostworld Senior Member

    Location:
    US
    My guess is the capstan is just the end of the motor shaft i.e. all one piece.

    If you feel overwhelmed, just keep this little mantra in mind. I do. I saw this David Mamet movie called "The Edge" where these two guys get trapped in the woods threatened by a bear. Alec Baldwin is terrified that they can't kill the bear and Anthony Hopkins tells him how Masai warriors kill lions with spears and that Baldwin should remember: "What one man can do, another man can do." That what I say to myself when I have some turntable in a dozen pieces on my dining room table and I'm trying to figure out how the hell anyone puts this stuff together. If some female worker in Japan could assemble the damn turntable in 15 minutes under the pressure of an assembly line, I certainly can, given a much more luxurious (if frustrating) timetable. Anyway, that's my mantra when doing electronics and all seems lost -- "What one man can do, another man can do!"
     
    Nathan Aaron likes this.
  23. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    "You have yet to report determining if it is tight on the shaft, and, if the motor is dead when it (again, the circled part) stops turning (it's slipping)"
    - I haven't yet had a chance to look at the player since my post late last week. But it's not just the silver part that stops turning, it's the entire shaft. When this would happen, I've touched it to check. And I'm not sure how to tell if the motor is dead? The entire record player would simply not make any hum/noise, or? Because I can't see any other moving parts except for this shaft. I'll dig back into it this week! :)
     
  24. JBStephens

    JBStephens I don't "like", "share", "tweet", or CARE. In Memoriam

    Location:
    South Mountain, NC
    In a very quiet room, you should be able to hear the whirrring of the motor as it runs, even if it does so quietly. Spinning for a while and then stopping happens with cap-start motors, but I'd wager that's a shaded pole. But if it is indeed a cap-start motor, then the cap needs to be replaced. Those litle plastic clips are hold-downs to keep the turntable from moving during shipping. If you press down on the turntable, you can slide them into the "lock" position. They would need to be un-done from underneath.

    More fun than a 1950's RCA 45-RPM changer, huh?
     
    Nathan Aaron likes this.
  25. Nathan Aaron

    Nathan Aaron Forum Resident Thread Starter

    JBStephens, would you have ANY ideas on how to remove the table from the plinth, based on the photos in this forum? Everyone is over my inability to do this (as they should be! :) ) and so am I! There are NO screws visible on the top of the table to separate it from the plinth, and I can't find a single entrance to get underneath! I'm just at a complete loss.

    I do believe the motor was running, even when the motor shaft wasn't turning (I played around with it again last night.) I'm not totally sure if it was the motor running or the slight hum of the speakers, but I'm pretty sure it was the motor.

    Nothing completely new after this (so if you're already over my ineptitude you might not want to read any further! Ha!) Last night, late last night, I decided to attempt to jump back in. So yet again I attempted to get the motor shaft a'spinning again. At first it would simply not budge. But after some twisting, it came back to life and spun away. I waited, and this time it didn't stop. So I finally put the idler wheel back on, perfect! Cleaned both with alcohol, etc. and put the platter back on. Attempted to play one side of a Sinatra album, not a single speed differentiation as it played. Yes! So I chose a different album after side A of the Sinatra album was done. (More rock oriented.) Perfect all the way through side A! (OMG, I gotta go to bed! But I didn't want to jinx it!) So I gave one more album a play on Side A, and again, excellent! What? Could it be? Some random fix? Tomorrow (today) would be the true test.

    This morning I plopped down a record, hit play and... NADA. Sigh. I have another Silvertone in the attic. Doesn't work. I'm really tempted to rip that thing apart. As in literally rip it apart in order to figure out how to get that table off the plinth. But even though it doesn't work, I really would rather not ruin a great shell. But it might just come to that...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine